Yanagi or Sujihiki

[TrevorCook]

Hello everyone,

I am in need of getting a new knife for slicing and carving but I'm not sure what type I would really need. I don't own any japanese knives yet but I have been reading the posts here and on KF for a while now and I have decided on getting a knife from watanabe. The quality and price seem about right for my budget and needs.

My current situation si that I am working at a hotel right now and I find myself slicing large volumes of roast beef. I would like to get a knife that can give me thin slices and stay sharp through 50 or so tenderloins. My henkles doesn't cut it right now, I find that I have to steele the knife quite often. I am also quite poor right now and can't afford all the knives I need so I would like to be able to use the knife for slicing smoked salmon and sashimi.

So my quesiton is... Would a Sujihiki be better suited to my carving needs or a Yanagi?

any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[Fred]

Yes, I think a sujihiki would be better. The yanagi is a fairly specialized tool for making thin (very, very thin) slices of raw fish. Obviously it will slice other things as well but the sujihiki is easier to control and will make slices thinner than your customers would accept. It is like a carving knife except with a thin hard blade.

[louisianacook]

A Sujihiki would be the way to go I think. Or if you want to try a hybrid, there are a few double bevel yanagi out there. I have one on order from here.
http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/shop_e/hocho_e.html#
Lee

[Scott]

Lee,

I know this is off topic, but when I followed your link to take a look at the knife you referred to, I took a voyeristic look at their waterstones (which I find I do at EVERY knife site now). I couldn't believe it when I saw a $15,000 (1.5 million yen) waterstone! Click on the Waterstone link and take a look at the first Okudo Suita waterstone.

Ok, it is about 10"x4.5"x2", but $15K?!? Even after experiencing how much better an edge I can get with waterstones, I can't imagine how much of an edge a stone would have to develop to justify that cost... Then again there are many who would say that I suffer from a deplorable lack of imagination. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Could that be a typo?

Scott

[RETREVR]

[ QUOTE ]
A Sujihiki would be the way to go I think. Or if you want to try a hybrid, there are a few double bevel yanagi out there. I have one on order from here.
http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/shop_e/hocho_e.html#
Lee

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ordered from them before? What can you tell me about their knives.

[louisianacook]

The waterstones are really expensive, I know because I bought one, lol. The Okudu Suita is a very rare stone in that size, and it has no hollow layers/flaws, this is why it is so expensive. That was not a typo. His knives are very nice, have a warm rustic feel to them. I really like my gyuto, I have a pic of it on KF somewhere. The blue super steel (AS) is really incredible. They are different than lots of knives out there, you don't see many smiths using AS, other than Murray Carter and this guy.
Lee

[Scott]

Well, this just goes to show how much I have to learn about Japanese knives... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

So, other than its rarity, are there some other qualities that make such a stone so valuable?

Scott

[Fred]

[ QUOTE ]
So, other than its rarity, are there some other qualities that make such a stone so valuable?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is the right question. These things often remind me of the high end audio business. Does a $10,000 amplifier sound better than a $300 one? That, of course, is a matter of opinion. How much polishing does an edge require? At what point do we begin polishing the soul instead of the steel?

[louisianacook]

From Japan Woodworker:
"Awaseto do not produce a mirror bright finish as do the synthetic stones. Japanese craftsmen believe the mirror finish obscures the surface of the bevel and does not allow as fine a determination of its flatness and sharpness. In addition, the Awaseto brings out all of the beauty of the lamination lines in the soft metal (Jigane) of the better quality plane irons much as the temper line in the Samurai sword is brought out by polishing. In practical terms, the actual difference in sharpness and longevity of the edge of tools sharpened by Awaseto and by synthetic stones."
Here is the link to the whole article.

http://japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2817

[Fred]

Sorry, but I think the "japanese craftsmen" are polishing their souls. If it doesn't polish as much, then the finish is coarser. That may or may not be better or worse depending one's requirements and point of view. Grits is grits, after all. I suspect the real difference is that these natural stones are slower to get the job done. But, no problem, I'll order one up and put it to the test.

[Scott]

Thanks for the reference! Definitely interesting. I have always been fascinated by the Japanese and their obsession with detail. How someone could dedicate their lives to things like the tea ceremony or Japanese poetry.

Of course, I guess we have our equivalents here in the West, but rarely to the same level. And they are not nearly as respected. Well, maybe that level of respect is changing as the generations change.

The problem is that I think that such obsessions are somewhat contagious. After all, take a look at us... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Fred, I love this "polishing the soul" phrase. Sharpening is like meditation. Unfortunately, if it takes a $15,000 stone to polish my soul I'm going to have to remain dull and unpolished....

bob

[Andy777]

If you don't mind paying a little extra I can fully recomend this knife (http://www.buyironchef.com/irchefsakkni1.html). While it is a little more expensive it is highly marked down. It originally cost ~$400. It's non-custom counterpart the S-1 is ~$280. As far as I can tell and from what other owners have told me it's the same steel as the S-1. Either way I'm sure you would be more than happy with any of the higher-end sujihikis on www.japanesechefsknife.com (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com)

[louisianacook]

They are definitely slower to get the job done, but they are so nice to use I really don't mind. I would reccommend a Suita stone, they cut and wear a little faster. Nagura also get the action "moving" faster as well.
Lee

[Oded]

[ QUOTE ]
Does a $10,000 amplifier sound better than a $300 one

[/ QUOTE ]
Being an even worse nutcase when it comes to high end audio (comparing to knives), I will have to say DEFINITELY YES in almost all cases i.e. exluding some real bad stuff with ahyper-inflated price.

IMO, the real question should be 'does a $10,000 amplifier sounds 100 times better then a $100 one'
Here the answer is obviously more problematic as we are entering into the realm of the diminishing return. The strait answer will be closer to a No.

In the same way, most would agree that a $600 Watanabe does not cut 4 times better then a $150 Shun and that a $600 natural stone does not polish 5 times better then a $120 Shapton.

[Scott]

I'm with you on the remaining "dull and unpolished" part! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif While I actually enjoy sharpening my knives now (though I'm hoping to pick up a stone holder soon) and have refered to it as being "zen-like", I don't think I'm at the "polishing the soul" level yet. My only problem now is that I've run out of knives to sharpen at home... AND the hair is growing back on the backs of my hands. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred, I had also looked at that Sakai knife before. It is a beauty. I just wish I had the money (and need) for one right now because I just KNOW that by the time I do, they will be gone.

Trevorcook, regardless of which knife you get (though I would also recommend a sujihiki because they are thinner than the yanagi), be sure to invest in a basic set of waterstones or good sharpening system (you can do a search on this or take a look at the resources and links pages for more information; Fred has done a good job on this) to keep the knife sharp.

My progress in knives started with cheap chef's knives ($20-30) that were stamped out of pretty soft stainless steel. They weren't very sharp to start with and surely didn't retain an edge. Then I broke down and bought a 4-star 10" Henkel and it was SO much better than what I had previously. It was (to me) very sharp out of the box and kept its edge much better than anything I had previously owned. However, after awhile, even with steeling (which I was doing incorrectly I now know) it lost its edge and I couldn't get it out-of-the-box sharp again with my diamond hones (EZE-Lap).

I used to be heavily into martial arts (actually I still am, I just don't have the time to train right now, so I watch a lot of movies... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif). And I'd hear about how sharp and durable genuine katanas were, putting anything European to shame. It put the bug in my ear about Japanese knives.

Over the years, I kept hearing that if you want the best of knives, get a Japanese knife as even their cheap ones were better than Europe's best (OK, that is a BIT of an exageration). Finally, just after Christmas last year, I decided to try a Japanese knife. Since I already had a big chef's knife, I thought I'd go with a lighter knife (my dull Henkel's was becoming much less enjoyable to use anymore). I looked around and found my yanagi at Knife Outlet ( http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/Hirotomo_Japanese_Cutlery/HIAOKO.htm ) and thought I'd go ahead and take the plunge.

Well, I can tell you that, beside the appearance and single bevel vs. double bevel, the difference was night and day. Out of the box, the knife was SO sharp that I was, quite frankly, scared to use it. When I thanked Fred for getting it to me and how sharp I thought it was, he told me that Japanese manufacturers only partially sharpened their knives, leaving it up to the owner to put the finishing touches on it. Needless to say, I was stunned.

So I bought a King #1000/#6000 stone ( http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/Sharpeners/JW01.096.30.htm ) and guess what? He was right. Once I learned how to sharpen all my other knives with the stone (starting with the stamped steel and working up to the Henkel and then yanagi) I found that not only were my other knives capable of being much sharper than they had ever been, the yanagi was capable of getting downright SHARP. It made a believer out of me. Except for getting a bone cleaver, I don't think I will ever buy a non-Japanese-made knife again. They are, IMO, that good!

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I think you are making a good choice to go with a Japanese knife. If I were you, I would buy the most knife I could reasonably afford. In the $100-200 range are a number of excellent knives. For your application, I would think that a stainless clad carbon steel knife would work best, though you may want to ask those here who actually cook for a living about that. If you intend to do other things with the knife, a gyuto might be a good option.

Good luck and let us know what your selection is!

Scott

[Peter]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the real question should be 'does a $10,000 amplifier sounds 100 times better then a $100 one'
Here the answer is obviously more problematic as we are entering into the realm of the diminishing return. The strait answer will be closer to a No.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, Oded. In fact, a 240mm Kasumi Chef's knife costs 330$ in Germany, the Messermeister only 33$ in their factory and it wouldn't be a good idea to buy the Kasumi.

A Maserati would be about 2 minutes faster on my way to work than my old Toyota. But, it's the real thing, it makes you smile, you can't calculate the costs for touching your heart.

Peter

[Oded]

[ QUOTE ]
But, it's the real thing, it makes you smile, you can't calculate the costs for touching your heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true!! I couldn't have put it better myself. This is really defining my approach toward knives, hi-end... everything pretty much, as long as I can afford it.

[RETREVR]

Has anyone seen a sujihiki from watenabe? I know he can make one but I have nver seen one. Is it traditional handle or western. If I were in a hotel I would probably opt for a sujihiki with a western handle. Probably 270mm or 300mm....depends on how big your workspace is. I generally use my Tojiro 270mm gyutou to slice all my roasts. It allows me to choke up on the knife unlike most slicers which are handle held only. I know that typical slicers, western and Japanese usualy have shallower blades(from edege to spine). This allows manuverability when carving. However, I think having a deeper blade for slicing straight down can be an advantage. I came to this theory the other day while using a coping saw on wood. A deeper saw blade can more easily produce an accurate vertical cut than a shallow blade. I definately keep a slicer and a carver, but have found the big gyutou to be faster and easier on non-bone, uniform roasts like a tenderloin.

[Andy777]

[ QUOTE ]
I think having a deeper blade for slicing straight down can be an advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that. When I am thin slicing raw meat I always turn to my 24cm Chan Chi Kee cleaver, It slices thinner and more consistently than any slicer I own, (I've never tried a yangai etc however) Of course you wouldn't want something like that for roasts and whatnot, but it does prove the point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.