sharpening steel for japanese knives

[aki]

Hi!

So I finally recieved my Tojiro DP 10 inch gyuto. Very happy with it so far. Does anyone know what degree factory bevel they put on them? Looks like 10 degrees to me but could be wrong.

I would like to get some recommendations for sharpening steels for japanese knives. I've got a Dick MultiCut steel that I'm very happy with for my Wusthofs but I've read somewhere that I should probably not use this on my Japanese knives (the Tojiro and Globals) since the steel is harder than german knives.

I've looked at the Global ceramic steel (the white one) but it's very expensive I think and I'm sure there is something better out there.

Thanks in advance,
Aki

[Benuser]

The core of the Tojiro is made of VG-10 and known for being somewhat brittle. With VG-10 I would suggest more or less convexed edge ending at some 30 degree inclusive, 20 degree as you suggested is much too low (for about any steel in kitchen use). Start your sharpening by thinning behind the edge at a much lower angle, use a marker to see which part you're working on. You will end at the very edge at 15 degree. No steel nor rod. Strop by making a few edge trailing strokes on the last stone for edge refreshing. No need to go any higher than J3000. Regards.

[rhinoknives1]

Hi!

So I finally recieved my Tojiro DP 10 inch gyuto. Very happy with it so far. Does anyone know what degree factory bevel they put on them? Looks like 10 degrees to me but could be wrong.

I would like to get some recommendations for sharpening steels for japanese knives. I've got a Dick MultiCut steel that I'm very happy with for my Wusthofs but I've read somewhere that I should probably not use this on my Japanese knives (the Tojiro and Globals) since the steel is harder than german knives.

I've looked at the Global ceramic steel (the white one) but it's very expensive I think and I'm sure there is something better out there.

Thanks in advance,
Aki

It's probably about 11 degrees so you are really close.Lol I sharpen these for customers and what I tell customers to avoid is a rough steel. A traditional steel does not sharpen, It straightens!
The Ceramic steels like the Global you mentioned, Do sharpen to a small degree and a round/oval Steel with diamond coating will straighten and remove some small burrs.

As stated by the previous poster the steel VG-10 is brittle so don't use any butchers Steel that has lines in it because you will chip out very small pieces of steel.

I hope this helps you?

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/

[boar_d_laze]

The Idahone "fine" ceramic is an excellent rod hone, and runs quite inexpensive. 12" is the most useful length if you're not going to pack it. Some retailers, CKtG for instance, don't refer to it as "fine," but as "1200."

Unless they've changed or I remember incorrectly (either of which is possible), the "stock" bevel angle for Tojiro DP is 15* on each side, with fair symmetry. Since the knives are individually sharpened at the factory before shopping, there's going to be some variation in angle and asymmetry from blade to blade.

If you're a good sharpener and knife technician, impose your own angles. If you're not, become one.

Much joy with your new knife,
BDL

[stevenStefano]

Ceramic steels are fine for knives like the Tojiros. Whatever you do, don't get the Global ceramic rod, it is scandalously expensive and it also sucks. Ikea do one for about a tenner and it actually does a very good job. If not that, the Mac black rod is very good and I use mine in work the odd time. You're in the UK yeah? I got mine here, ("http://www.chefs.net/prodpage.asp?productid=5346) it is a decent deal and the longer one is definitely better. I'd try the Ikea one first to be honest and see how you like that

[Keith]

I used a Forchner 12" combination steel for yrs.,on Masamoto Gyuto's,Sugi,petty.It is fine on one side, polish(smooth) on the other.It is easy to use.You do not want a medium or coarse steel for your DP.Never use a diamond steel,those can play havoc on a fine edge.

The ceramic is also good,however the Forchner is tough,cheap(around 30.00 for 12"),works great & will not mess up your thin edges.

[aki]

I just ordered the 10.5" MAC Black ceramic steel.
Would prefer a 12 " but couldn't find one easilly.

About 50 USD so not a bad price.

Cheers,
Aki

[jmbullman]

The messermeister fine ceramic rod is great also, I have been using it for years and it came out of the box smooth as glass at 12 inches and is my favorite so far besides the idahone. Peace, jmbullman. If your tojiro was like mine when it came in the bevel degree was all over the place so before I used it I took it to approx 15 degrees and now is sharp as it gets for me anyway.

[aki]

Yeah, the bevel is definitely not straight but a bit wavy here and there. Will take it to the stones this weekend!

Cheers,
aki

[-dg]

Ceramic steels are fine for knives like the Tojiros. Whatever you do, don't get the Global ceramic rod, it is scandalously expensive and it also sucks. Ikea do one for about a tenner and it actually does a very good job. If not that, the Mac black rod is very good and I use mine in work the odd time. You're in the UK yeah? I got mine here, ("http://www.chefs.net/prodpage.asp?productid=5346) it is a decent deal and the longer one is definitely better. I'd try the Ikea one first to be honest and see how you like that

I have the Ikea FLAKSA rod and have given several away as gifts. It is very smooth white ceramic about 1/2 inch diameter and 10" long. It would be nice if the handle was less ugly and the rod was longer, but it is only $10 and it works really well. I don't think a rod can work any better. I use it on Forchner stainless, Fujiwara FKM moly stainless, vg10 and Carbonext with no problems. It is particularly effective on the FKM they are hard enough to take a good edge and soft enough that a rod like this can keep it up.

[doug8066]

In case it's not been made clear:

a/ DO NOT use any metal steel with grooves in it. These grooved steels are a hangover from the days when knives were made of soft steel, were blunt, and relied upon small serrations to cut properly (like a minature saw). Even the finest grooved steel will only wreck a fine edge on a Japanese kitchen knife. Please throw that steel in the trash right now.

b/ A good quality ceramic rod will do the same job, only properly. I personally have a Kyocera ceramic rod, which I use on all my knives after each cutting session. About 3 to 6 carful strokes on each side will re align and refresh the cutting edge. You have recommendations here on a good ceramic rod. Do yourself a favour and get one.

[Keith]

In case it's not been made clear:

a/ DO NOT use any metal steel with grooves in it. These grooved steels are a hangover from the days when knives were made of soft steel, were blunt, and relied upon small serrations to cut properly (like a minature saw). Even the finest grooved steel will only wreck a fine edge on a Japanese kitchen knife. Please throw that steel in the trash right now.

b/ A good quality ceramic rod will do the same job, only properly. I personally have a Kyocera ceramic rod, which I use on all my knives after each cutting session. About 3 to 6 carful strokes on each side will re align and refresh the cutting edge. You have recommendations here on a good ceramic rod. Do yourself a favour and get one.

I agree that a rough,medium or diamond steel is no good for a thin edge Gyuto.The forchner is Fine & polish,even the fine is much less grove than on many ceramics.I have used the ceramics as well.All are not created equal,same as steel rods.

The forchner is still my favorite,often I only use the smooth steel polish side.I like the 12" size.The trouble with steels or ceramics is that a great # of people use them incorrectly.Angle is important on a steel it should be the same or just a hair more than your final bevel.Spine level off the rod should be constant.

I use the forshner to hone my edge between the stones after many hours of cutting doing banquet prep.Of coarse all my single bevel Japan blades never touch a steel only polishing stones.For a home cook a steel may not be needed at all.Esp. with good steel that holds an edge well,just touch it up on the stones.

The Forchner has served me well in a production kitchen.Def. not to be thrown in the trash

[LennyD]

I use the forshner to hone my edge between the stones after many hours of cutting doing banquet prep.Of coarse all my single bevel Japan blades never touch a steel only polishing stones.For a home cook a steel may not be needed at all.Esp. with good steel that holds an edge well,just touch it up on the stones.

The Forchner has served me well in a production kitchen.Def. not to be thrown in the trash

I have never used a smooth steel, and have thought about one more than once. Can you compare the Forschner to a ceramic rod?

Also though I have not cooked in a commercial kitchen in a long while and do not give the same level of use or abuse to my knives now being a home cook etc I have to agree with the idea of just touching up on the stones, but also found it a bit of a pain with the soaking time etc, and now actually keep a hardwood block with 2500 JIS wet paper glued to it in the drawer with my knife block. I found that with the moly steel and the vg10 blades I have I can just touch up easily and quickly with a light stropping motion. No water no mess and no wait.

If I remember right the grit size is in between a 2k and 5k waterstone and much finer than the inexpensive ceramic hone I use that is approx 1K, and since I set up the block to be a similar width as my stones there is a much wider contact area on the edge than when using the ceramic.

I guess the idea is to not lock yourself into any one way of doing things as there are always more than one way to do something, but also curious to thoughts of maintaining an edge between sharpening?

And if you ever do feel like throwing that hone into the trash, let me get you my address so you can send it here ;)

[Keith]

I like the smooth ceramics,you do not need much to realine the edge after or during a cutting session.For the same reason I like polishing steels. I know forchner makes a 10" polishing steel.I like the combo because it is 12" & has very fine on one side & polish on the other.It is easy to use to change just move 90 degree in your hand you go from fine to polish.

The advantage of a steel is it is tough.Takes up little space,I hang mine next to my magblock at home.It will last longer than you if well cared for.It will fit in a knife bag for work.

At the American Kitchen supply here in Hawaii it costs 27.00 + tax.On the online Ward sharpening site his advice with steels is sound,I teach just a hair more or the same as final bevel.Holding the steel upright on a table is one way to do it.Paying attention to the level of the spine.I hold the steel,extention of hand & draw blade across away from me with spine side in my line of sight.I have done this for yrs.,but do not try this with people or objects around.If starting to learn correct steeling,perhaps table is best.

[jmbullman]

Even though I use my smooth ceramic messermeister steel, I would prefer to strop with a piece of leather on a handamerican base, I know this is not practical for a restaurant with people on the line but in my oo it works better and I didn't mean to start a crap storm between stropping and steeling I was just putting in my preferred way and if you have a loaded strop that just makes it better. Once again my opinion. Peace to all, jmbullman

[LennyD]

do not try this with people or objects around

Wow that gave me a vision of something out of one of those cheap horror flicks :D

I took a look at some of the steels that I still have around, and found the old Henckels one that I leave in the block that sits on the counter (the one with a mis-mosh of various inexpensive western blades for guests use etc) that has seemed to have lost most all of the grooves over time and is nearly perfectly smooth except for a few spots (could this ever be good for J knives?) and also rather long and large diameter one that looks really old from Craftsmen (the tool people lol) that I have not used in a while, was used on a machete and some odd knives I used for odd cutting jobs outside the kitchen, and had grooves so deep you can easily catch your finger nail in.

I mention this because of how much things have changed since moving on to J knives, and how except for the home version of house knives and utility knives for cutting rope or canvas etc I hardly use a steel at all anymore, and look at these tools that once were used often as obsolete.

Now just to remember to add a fine ceramic rod to my next CKTG order as I have managed to forget to do it twice now :(

[stevenStefano]

I only really use my ceramic rod when my knives get so blunt that stropping doesn't work, and/or when I'm too lazy to sharpen them. They definitely have a purpose, but basically I think they take off way too much metal for what they do, stropping is just much better and easier on the knives. You can also screw up the profiles of knives with a ceramic rod if you aren't careful

[Benuser]

Even the finest ceramic rod used with the lightest touch will leave a battlefield of scratches that will have to be removed in the next sharpening session on stones. Have a look with a magnifier. Use your rod only in case of emergency when you can't strop on your stone.

[LennyD]

Even the finest ceramic rod used with the lightest touch will leave a battlefield of scratches that will have to be removed in the next sharpening session on stones. Have a look with a magnifier. Use your rod only in case of emergency when you can't strop on your stone.

I have agree you can see the scratches when you put your newly sharpened and polished edge (say 4k+) to a ceramic rod, but the ones I get are not too coarse and definitely lighter than the factory finished edge on any of the knives I own.

I guess I am going to have to buy a rod with a known "grit" so there can be some baseline to use for comparison etc.

[boar_d_laze]

Polish is not sharpness, a lot of polish isn't necessary for most kitchen work and is of limited duration on most knives anyway. If a fine rod trues a rolled edge but leaves scratches, what's the big problem? How much polish do you need to cut celery?

Not all rods are good rods (and some grooved rods are perfectly fine even for Japanese knives), not many people actually have steeling figured out, not all knives steel well, and it's not a substitute for actual sharpening. HOWEVER, the thing about using an appropriate rod in the appropriate manner on an appropriate knife is that it allows you to spend more time using the knife and less time sharpening it.

BDL

[Benuser]

I'll agree that polish does not constitute an aim in itself. A certain degree of polish (2k-3k) though will reduce friction and make the edge last longer. An edge refreshed with a rod will perform less than one that has undergone some stropping on a stone, and will be less durable. There is as well some unnecessary material loss because steel damaged (weakened) by the rod will be removed at the eventual sharpening. session. I imagine that in some pro environment a rod might be a necessity, but otherwise it should be avoided.

[Keith]

Polish is not sharpness, a lot of polish isn't necessary for most kitchen work and is of limited duration on most knives anyway. If a fine rod trues a rolled edge but leaves scratches, what's the big problem? How much polish do you need to cut celery?

Not all rods are good rods (and some grooved rods are perfectly fine even for Japanese knives), not many people actually have steeling figured out, not all knives steel well, and it's not a substitute for actual sharpening. HOWEVER, the thing about using an appropriate rod in the appropriate manner on an appropriate knife is that it allows you to spend more time using the knife and less time sharpening it.



BDL
Incorrect usage of steels is common.BDL I agree,heck I can get a super polish wt. my strop,nice to look at,I recommend smooth steels & ceramic rods,because thats all I need to realine an edge after hours of cutting between the stones.Also more damage can be done with aggressive rods,esp those daimond steels.I have seen guys who have no stone skills wailing away wt. a daimond at a 45% angle,it's enough to make you shutter!

[LennyD]

How to tell a good rod from a not so good one?

Specifically ceramic since I was wanting to get a longer one than what I have, and also because I am deciding between the inexpensive one sold at Ikea, and the more expensive but well reviewed Idahone.

Also the whole debate on polish being a good thing or just extra time and expense or not needed for most use is an interesting one, and is also one of those things that no matter how much I read about it is still inconclusive etc.

Even my own messing around with different finishing grits has not seemed to produce any stand out one way or the other after a few times of use (and I am not working in a commercial kitchen either) and the only real obvious difference I can find is that there is a noticeable reduction in drag if your actually feeling for it.

I still strive for a finely polished, straight, even, and reflective edge on my J knives, but have given up on that idea for most all of the others as they just don't hold it for any reasonable amount of time.

I guess maybe if I cut lots of fish I might understand better, but for now it is more about improving and a learning curve for sharpening to higher grit stones, and not so much for improving sharpness as even the soft steel Mundials I have are seriously sharp after sharpening, and they have never been over 2K, and likely will never go over 1K since I finally gave into getting a 1K stone :)

Is this just one of those areas where a cook and an enthusiast have different takes on things?

[Benuser]

A few remarks: with soft steel there is no good reason to go beyond 1k. I sharpen my soft knives on a 400, then strop and deburr on a 800. With most other knives in the kitchen 3k will do very well. Any edge though will get damaged by the use of a rod. The only rational use of a rod is for deburring after sharpening on a 80 grit SiC stone. Regards.

[stevenStefano]

I think ceramic rods definitely have their use, particularly in a pro environment but generally stropping is much better. If you cut a lot of meat and need a toothy edge a rod would be good but I find stropping on cardboard gives a similar result

[aki]

Thanks for all your interesting replies.

I'm pretty used to steeling. I generally steel my Wusthofs before each use. I'm not sure if this is neccesarry with the Tojiro DP, it definitely seems to hold it's sharpness better.

[Benuser]

These Tojiros have a core made of VG-10 and are not particularly forgiving. Don't steel.

[LennyD]

A few remarks: with soft steel there is no good reason to go beyond 1k. I sharpen my soft knives on a 400, then strop and deburr on a 800. With most other knives in the kitchen 3k will do very well. Any edge though will get damaged by the use of a rod. The only rational use of a rod is for deburring after sharpening on a 80 grit SiC stone. Regards.

One question.

How can a ceramic rod rated at 1200 mess up an edge from an 80 grit?

Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

[stevenStefano]

One question.

How can a ceramic rod rated at 1200 mess up an edge from an 80 grit?

Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

Some people deburr with a ceramic rod. It actually works pretty well. When you use the rod you are folding the burr over each time and it weakens it very quickly. I think what Benuser meant was that it is a useful technique for very low grit stones where there is a very large burr that might be hard to get rid of

[boar_d_laze]

How do you even get a burr on an 80# stone?

I use one or the other of my two steels to help chase the burr (as a time saver and/or for difficult burrs) all the way up to 3K, without issues. I also use them on most of my knives for truing. One of my steels -- a well worn, Henckels "fine" -- is grooved, while the other -- an HA Borosilicate -- is micro-grooved. Maybe I'm not as demanding as Benuser or maybe we do things differently. But... works for me.

I also disagree with Benuser about steeling a Tojiro DP. They steel fine, if you use an appropriately fine steel and know how to use it; the "know how" includes no clanging, appropriate angle, using a lot of steel length, not too much pressure, and not too many reps.

The real issues with steeling come with alloys which are very strong but not tough, or with knives which are sharpened with a high degree of asymmetry. In either case, steeling will tend to promote chipping.

BDL

PS. Since we've got several specific disagreements, let me say that I certainly don't think Benuser's points are wrong, invalid or even mistaken; we just have different experiences and perspectives.

[Keith]

As I said home cooks esp. persons on this forum wt. def. stone skills do not need any kind of steel.I have never seen a strop in a comer.kitchen,I like my strop & use it to get a polish that shines.

I used trail & error using thin Virgin Carbon Masamoto's at work.I only used a 1000 grit brick & still had the sharpest blades in the kitchen.I started using polishing stones when I got my first Yanagi.

At first I used a med steel & did not like what it did to my Masas.So I went to a polishing steel & it worked great,also on my own I figured out that using more extreme angles can round your edge,so I used shallow angles like on my stone,that worked as well.With those thin carbons I could cut a long time before the edge would degrade,a couple lite measured sweeps on a polishing steel realine the edge & more sharp cutting.I don't like to use the stone more than 2 or 3 times a week those expensive J knives wear down faster with alot of stone work.Only my Yanagi when cutting lots of fish I touched up on a polishing stone at end of night wt only one lite pass & remove the burr.