Is there a Fred in the house? [Archive]

Fred

02-06-2005, 06:06 PM

Hello, Mtnbiker. I ride a road bike myself. I live in the country and have countless miles of low traffic roads to pedal around in the mornings.

Understand that, in your price range, Watanabe makes carbon steel knives. They aren't stainless steel. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it is something you should know.

VG-10 is a stainless steel and a very good one for knives, kitchen or otherwise. The knives you mentioned are, for the most part, VG-10 in the core of the sandwich. I would consider that a good thing.

Let me suggest this. The first thing you want is a chef knife. Why not read my reviews and then you can come back with any questions. You can find them here. (http://www.foodieforums.com/gyutoreview.htm) Then at least we'll be reading from the same page.
Welcome aboard.

mtnbiker

02-06-2005, 09:28 PM

Okay, you told me to read those reiviews and come back with more questions so here I go...
I enjoyed reading about those various makes of knives, I didn't realize that there were that many japanese knife manufacturers that make Western style chef knives. After reading and analyzing your reviews I narrowed down that selection first by lengths of the knives then by their rankings. I selected the higher ranked knives since I am going for quality more than quantity. The Misono's were the most expensive of my pick, followed by Kiyotsuna Josuka, next was Kikuichi(I could only find the Elite Carbon Steel series so I only know those prices), and the Tojiro's. Of the Misono knives the ones that fit in my budget the best were the Sweden Steel series, I'd like to know how these knives compare to the UX10 series that you reviewed since they are markably less expensive at only $117(Gyuto240mm), and you can also get an engraving on the blade free of charge. I was able to find Kiyotsuna's Jasuka for $79.99(210mm) and $94.99(240mm). Kikuichi's Elite Carbon Steel goes for $79.99(210) and $99.99(240mm). While Tojiro's go for $59.40(Gyuto240mm) and less. As for the rest of my knives, will they cost this much or is it acceptable for them to be somewhat less expensive? And after a chef's knife what other knives should I look for. I would also like to have a yanagi for fish, but after that would it still be practical to get a santoku, deba, or nakkiri. I'd like to keep the number of knives at a minimum maybe 4 or less, I hope that doesn't complicate things.

Fred

02-06-2005, 09:44 PM

And there are lots of choices besides the ones I reviewed. The Kikuichi Elite Carbon is not stainless. It is carbon steel. I have some reviews there as well here. (http://www.foodieforums.com/carbongyutoreview.htm) I keep a 240 Kikuichi Elite Carbon gyuto as one of my chef knives in the storage block that holds the knives I use every day. It is a super knife but not stainless.

Yes, I think the gyuto is the main issue. It is the knife that is used the most and the one that benefits most from the things that make Japanese kitchen knives the best on the planet. The Tojiro is a particularly good value in my opinion and, in the opinion of many on this board, the Mac is another. I haven't tested the Macs personally but I will soon enough. The parers etc aren't as important but, even if you want them of the same quality as the gyuto, they are certainly a lot less expensive. I have a Tojiro petty and a Hattori parer myself and I like both of them a lot.

You really can't go too far wrong with any of these knives or with the ones you mentioned on the other board. Shun are a terrific value and one of the best selling lines of knives in the U.S. Al Mar are also excellent but on the short side. If you want me pick one gyuto for myself, I think it would be the brand new Tojiro powder steel that I just finished reviewing. I wish I had one in 240mm size. If you want me to pick the best value, it would be a Tojiro again, but it would be the one in my review. If you like the suminagashi knives (damascus) the Hattori is certainly a better choice than the Shun, mostly because of the handles. If you want a traditional Japanese knife, then I would likely vote with the others for the Watanabe in terms of value, although there are better knives available at higher prices than his. Hope this helped.

mtnbiker

02-06-2005, 10:19 PM

First it doesn't matter to me that a blade is non"stainless", I take care of my knives and even stainless steel knives will discolor if you abuse them.
Right now I'm trying to narrow down my previous list before thinking about the other knives that I will buy later. Between the Kiyotsuna and the Kikuichi, what are the pluses and minuses of each. I realize that the Misono's are at the top of the list for quality and price and the Tojiro's are more towards the bottom end of the list. So price aside could you put the knives in order of best to worst in the catagories of blade quality, ergonomics, and fit and finish.

Sid Post

02-06-2005, 10:48 PM

Mtnbiker,

You are contrained by your price. With an ideal budget of $100 and a maximum for $200, you are excluding a lot of knives that many of us focus on here. Don't let our focus on higher priced knives sway you unduly into a pricepoint you are not comfortable with. Gyuto for $100 or less are great knives. Personally, I would spend more but I can afford to do so. Do I get a knife for $200 that is twice as good as the $100 knife? I don't think so. That extra money buys ME a knife I personally like better but in the end either knife would serve me well. The cheaper knife may take a little more elbow grease to fine tune to my personal desires but, that $100 saved is worth a little effort isn't it?

In your price range, Tojiro is hard to beat. I like a knife a little more refined then the Tojiro DP series but, that hasn't stopped me from buying 4 of them either. Catch them on sale at Korin and expect to spend about $60 plus shipping for 240mm Gyuto. If you want to move a little upscale, the Tojiro Powdered Steel knife will run you about $150 at Japanese Chef's Knife (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/PowderedHighSpeedToolSteelSeries.html). The 240mm Gyuto will do the vast majority of your kitchen work at home.

Then you can add a Sujibiki to handle your slicing chores and the Petty for delicate work. A Honesuki can be added if you need to debone a lot of meat.

The Tojiro DP series can be purchased within your $200 upper limit as a group when you catch them on sale at Korin. If you opt for Tojiro powdered steel, buy the Chef's knife first and save up for the others.

And make sure you buy a long enough Gyuto! A lot of people initially buy the 210mm but, later seem to wish they had purchased the 240mm. The lighter weight and ease with which they can be used is deceiving when you are moving to them for the first time. Personally, I use a 300mm Masamoto VG-10 model I picked up from Korin on Ebay. My 210mm model hasn't been used in a long time.

mtnbiker

02-07-2005, 01:00 AM

Well I think I may have a preliminary setup for knives and I want to see what you guys think.

Chef's knife: Kiyotsuna Josaku Gyuto(240mm $94.99), Tojiro DP (240mm $59.40), Misono Sweden Steel (240mm $117)
Santoku: Misono (180mm $77), Kai Wasabi (165mm $36.95), Tojiro DP (170mm $45), Tosagata (6" $27.75)
Nakiri: are they really necessary?
Yanagi: Kai Wasabi (241.3mm $36.95), otherwise haven't really looked too much
Paring: http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=02.078&dept_id =12598

I would probably make a trade from haveing a better santoku to having a better yanagi but I'm pretty sure it's hard to be $27.75 for a santoku period. But I would like to hear people's opinions on what I have selected.

frosted

02-07-2005, 04:51 AM

For my basic set of knives I would prefer Gyuto, Sujihiki, Yo Deba, Honesuki, and Paring.

Mac paring knife (http://www.jbprince.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2377) is a good deal. It has a good finish, it's sharp, and only $30.

I prefer nakiri over santoku because I like to use gyuto over santoku. I think santoku is somewhere between gyuto & nakiri.

Fred

02-07-2005, 07:09 AM

My major input would be that the santoku is not necessary. Actually, I don't think they are even a good idea. Too short to be good chopping knife and too wide to do anything else. Save that money and buy a slicer, parer or utility knife.

Oded

02-07-2005, 01:46 PM

Hmm... I think there could be more then one winning combination...

Right now, for most of my food making I use the trio of the Shun Yanagiba as a slicer, Santku for the general purpose and the kodeba for the small tasks.

Recently, I have started wanting longer knife then the Shun wide Santuko (180mm). I will have to see how the Suisin Funayuki Deba fits into this picture once it arrives (these guys do take their time)

Please do not mix any of these Debas with proper Deba which is a thick and heavy knife not required unless you intend to fillet lots of fish.

If I was to buy my first trio today I would indeed be looking at Watanbe but not one of his sets but trying to mix and match a slicer, chopper and a small knife depends on your specific preferences.

P.S these me, Carbonrider from KF... sorry for not coming back earlier, I am not online most of the time this week.

mtnbiker

02-07-2005, 05:04 PM

I thought having a santoku would not really be necessary since I would have a chef's knife capable of most tasks that a santoku would do. So would the same go for a nikiri? I am planning on getting some sort of yanagi and a paring knife. I just hope I'll be able to keep the costs down because I haven't seen too many yanagi's that are fairly priced.

Fred

02-07-2005, 05:13 PM

The Nakiri is a vegetable slicer. It isn't a chef knife at all or a substitute for one (except on Food TV.) I can send you a yanagi for $15 if you like. Cheap enough?

mtnbiker

02-07-2005, 06:07 PM

That's what I meant... that if I have a good chef's knife, a Nakiri is not necessary. But I would still like a relatively good slicer and paring knife....the hunt continues.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-07-2005, 06:15 PM

DO NOT buy that picnic knife for use as a paring knife. It is too cheap and not worth much beyond what it's intended use is...to slice coldcuts and cheese on a picnic. Very cheap.

mtnbiker

02-07-2005, 07:06 PM

Thankyou for the warning, I hate purchasing something that claims it is of high quality in nature but turns out to be a dud. Such as my current knives, I thought they would be somewhat okay, but they aren't!

mtnbiker

02-07-2005, 07:17 PM

I haven't decided on a gyuto yet, but here is a link to a low priced yanagi but I'm not sure if I can get a good one for that low of a price.
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/Hirotomo_Japanese_Cutlery/HIAOKO.htm

blwchef

02-07-2005, 08:14 PM

I recomend buying all Tojiro. You can get the gyuto,santoku and sujihiki for under $200, and they are great knives. I own the santoku and honesuki. You can buy cheap paring knife for now for $10 but I recomend the Dojo paring knife. Those little guys are razor sharp.
Brandon

Scott

02-07-2005, 08:59 PM

mtnbiker,

I have that particular yanagi. If you like the way it looks on the page, I can tell you that it looks every bit as good in person! Also, it was, at least to me, someone who was/is new to Japanese knives, so sharp that I was initially scared to use it... then Fred told me that it was only partially sharpened and that I was going to have to put it on a stone to see what it was like SHARP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, I can say I can whole-heartedly recommend this knife. I think that it is a heck of a deal for a blue steel kasumi yanagi. However, keep in mind that I have not tried other yanagi's and my perception may be due to a lack of experience.

Make sure you have a need for a yanagi rather than a sujihiki. In retrospect, I think that I would have preferred a sujihiki, just because of the narrower blade. Though, at about 4mm, it isn't like it is really wide, just that 2-3mm might have been nicer. However, I'm going to need to use it more to know for sure.

Scott

miles

02-08-2005, 12:21 AM

You definitely have a challenge on your hands. I'm going to echo many of the other comments, but I'd strongly suggest that you get the basics covered and then look at more specialized knives down the road when you can afford them.

The goal should be to maximize the return on your $200, if that's the primary consideration. Sid is very wise in his suggestion that you should not push yourself into a budget that you're not comfortable with. You can do quite a bit with that budget, but you're going to need to make some choices. If it were me, I'd suggest that you prioritize the knives by importance and usefulness, putting the gyutou at the very top of the list. Then put the money towards the knives that will see the most use and keep going down the list, one by one to see how much knife you can buy at each stage while still keeping under $200.

Any of the gyutou you're looking at would be very sound choices. I'd backburner the Santoku unless you really have a burning desire for one. You'll be better off with getting a good gyutou. The gyutou will do most anything you would ask of a santoku, but a santoku wouldn't necessarily be able to do everything a gyutou would be able to do. If you really want something with that general profile, a deba would be a better choice since it's intended for heavier duty use than a gyutou and won't really overlap uses quite the same way that a santoku would overlap with a gyutou. Incidentally, the wasabi line has a deba (may acually be the santoku you were referring to) which would be a good choice budget-wise.

The yanagi is a bit more specialized than might be immediately apparent. At least that's what I've found, using mine. If I were looking at a budget and needed to keep things bare bones and get the most performance for my dollar, I'd opt for a sujibiki before a yanagi since it will be more appropriate for a broader range of uses.

I'd definitely take a pass on the usuba, as well. You should be able to make due with the gyutou in lieu of the usuba which would have a much narrower range of uses.

Tojiro DP really is a very solid line, especially if you're on a budget. Like Sid, Brandon, Fred, and the rest of the chorus, that's where I suggest you focus your efforts. I think you'll get the most bang for your buck if you stick mainly with Tojiro. You could set yourself up with a very good basic kit and still stay just under $200 with a 240 gyutou, 240 sujibiki (270 would be better, IMHO), honesuki, and still have enough for a small petty or parer. The Mac parer really is a nice one, particularly for $30. I'd opt for that before the Tojiro petty.

Those four knives would be what I consider to be a bare minimum kit for what I typically do. I consider a boning knife to be fairly important, but if you don't expect to be doing that much work in that arena, you might want to take a pass on the honesuki and that would give you more money to work with. If you do opt out on the honesuki, if it were me, I'd put the deba in it's place.

Even if you were to go with the 270 sujibiki and stick with the other three types I suggested, you'd end up maybe $20-$25 over your budget. A roughly 10% variance doesn't seem too bad, but ultimately you must be the judge of whether that's something that you would be comfortable with or not. I'm not the guy spending the money, so my opinion on budget overruns doesn't really matter. If $200 is truly the absolute maximum you can spend, then you can weigh the costs and benefits of each knife to decide what the best return on your investment will be. You may decide that it's better to spend more on fewer knives in the interim and buy two or three knives and then come back later to add pieces to your kit as your finances allow.

I'm confident that whatever you end up choosing, you'll end up with at the very least, a good foundation to build on, if not a good basic kit.

Good luck. Hope my comments prove to be helpful (if not somewhat long-winded). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Mike

mtnbiker

02-08-2005, 03:02 AM

Don't worry I always like to hear advice short or long, and so far to this moment everyone it seems has given me good advice. So I think I might have a set, unless someone has an objection....

Kiyotsuna Josaku Gyuto 240mm $94.95 or Misono Sweden Steel Gyuto 240mm $117
Hirotomo Aoko Kasumi Yanagi - Kuroichi 270mm $69.95
MAC parer $30.40

Is it really necessary to have a 270mm yanagi or would a 240 be okay?
I would have gone with the Tojiro gyuto but I think this is where I'd like to spend to most to get the best I can and keep the cost down. And as you said Miles, if it comes later on that I might need a boning knife I can always get one later, but I'd hate to get one and not really need it.

frosted

02-08-2005, 03:38 AM

For yanagi, buy the longest you can afford.
When using yanagi, you will use pull motion, not saw motion. So you will need the long one.
For most slicing task, I prefer sujihiki over yanagi.

Sid Post

02-08-2005, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For yanagi, buy the longest you can afford.
When using yanagi, you will use pull motion, not saw motion. So you will need the long one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is consistent with my limited experience with them. My 240mm model really is too short for the normal size pieces of fish I get here in the Sonoran Desert.

At the expense of being redundant, do you really need a Yanagi? Do you cut that much fish? Based on my limited experience, these knives seem to be disproportionately expensive for the amount of use they get in most kitchens. If it is just a fascination issue with this specialized Japanese knife, get over it and use your limited budget where you get a "bigger bang for your buck".

Would a thin Gyuto give you the fish cutting ability you need? Would a good slicer work effectively in your kitchen? Buy the best Gyuto for you first purchase and build from there. Buy the Gyuto that meets the most of your needs within your budget. That knife is the workhorse in most kitchens, even ones that are well equipped with lots of cutlery. Then add a good paring knife.

<font color="blue">Buy quality over quantity.</font> Buying rarely used knives at the expense of purchasing a better kitchen workhorse is a poor use of limited funds IMHO.

What job can I not do with my Gyuto that I need to do? Yes, I have a boning knife but, how often do I buy a whole chicken? Could I debone that rare whole chicken with a Gyuto? Could I use one of my older thick edged Chef knives for the task? Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a family pack of Chicken pieces to cook up and avoid the wings and necks?

I use a lot of knives just because I own them. That doesn't mean I need them. I love my Watanabe Santoku but, what does it do that my Gyuto can't? A Nakiri or Usuba may be handier for cutting up vegetables but, my Gyuto does a fine job on them and is the one I reach for almost exclusively (yes, I prefer my 300mm Gyuto to a ~165mm Nakiri or Santoku - YMMV /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

Whether you limit your budget to $100 or $200, there is merit to spending that sum on just a Gyuto and a paring knife. A Tojiro DP Gyuto and paring knife hits the $100 mark pretty close. A Tojiro Powder steel Gyuto and paring knife hits the $200 mark

Also, don't forget the impact of shipping on your purchases. If you get multiple knives from different sources, shipping is a tangible percentage of your total purchase price. $7 or $8 shipping on a ~$30 paring knife increases its price by 25% to 30%! Paying $7 to Koki doesn't bother me at all but, paying $7 or more to several web retailers who deliver slowly irks me. Unfortunately, where I live I often have no choice due to limited shopping options locally and the cost prohibitive nature of driving to Phoenix.

Finally, <font color="blue">how do you intend to maintain the edges on your new knives?</font> Do you have a good stone now or, does that need to be accounted for in your current budget?

Scott

02-08-2005, 01:36 PM

Sid,

Great point! While I figured I would continue to use my Henkel chef's knife (and I am), I bought my yanagi for the very reason you mentioned. However, only being a home cook, I have been able to use it for a variety of uses and have been quite happy with it. As I said above, I still wonder it I would have been more happy with a sujihiki, had I known about them when I made my purchase.

Also, the point about the stones is an excellent one! They are very important if mtnbiker wants to keep those knives sharp... or, for that matter, even bring them up to their full potential before use. This brings up the question of what stones would be appropriate to start and which ones to strive for (especially since a good set of Shapton stones could cost more than his knife budget!).

Scott

PS. mtnbiker, remember(!), practice sharpening on your other knives before tackling your good ones! I'm hoping to lay my hands on a Murray Carter sharpening DVD to see how much more I can learn about how to sharpen. As they say in so many endeavors, practice, practice, practice.

mtnbiker

02-08-2005, 02:47 PM

Well being a knife entusiast ever since I was a kid I have had lots of experience sharpening knives when compared to the average person. However I don't think I've ever used stones, for the most part I've used Crok Sticks for both kitchen and hunting/utility knives. Right now I own the Lansky professional Crok Stick set and with some of my pocket knives that I own(atleast the ones made of quality steel), I can get very sharp. But as I was figuring that for these new knives I will most like need to buy stones instead of using my Crok Sticks.
Well since once again I'm being told to get a good gyuto, is the Tojiro Swedish steel(rc 61-63) superior to the Misono swedish steel(rc ?), or would the Kiyotsuna Josaku(rc 60-62) be fine. I'm not too worried about fit and finish my main focus would be on blade performance. And as far as fish and meat goes, I love fish and I love to cook it, but I may want to postpone buying a yanagi for the time being then see if I really do need one. Well since it seems that I've cut my knives down to two or maybe one, is it possible to include some stones in with the mix?

miles

02-08-2005, 09:25 PM

I think those are all fine choices. I'd still suggest a sujibiki before the yanagi, but you're the one buying it. If you've got your heart set on a yanagi, then go for it.

As for the length, I really wouldn't go with 240, it's just not long enough to be especially useful. To echo Sid's comments, buy as much length as you can in a slicer. If the budget just doesn't allow it right now, pass on it and wait until you can afford the one you want.

There's nothing more irritating than buying something and realizing that you spent good money and it wasn't the right choice.

You'll be able to use the 240 gyutou for more things than you might imagine. I've found mine to be a spectacular bread knife, as an example. I don't usually use it in that capacity, but when it's in your hand and the FOH is screaming for another half loaf or you're suddenly making crostini, it does the job quite admirably.

Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott

02-09-2005, 12:01 AM

mtnbiker,

I understand. FWIW, using waterstones will take your sharpening to another level. I used to use those and I can say, without reservation, that I can sharpen much better with stones than with anything else. Of course, YMMV, but I think that you will be much happier with your knives after sharpening them with stones than ceramic sticks... though they may work well as a steel.

As for which gyuto, it seems that the concensus is that the Tojiro DP series are the value leaders at their price point. After that, the options appear to open up a bit, but the Tojiro petty's seem to be pretty reasonable are are their sujibiki's.

As for stones, there seem to be three main brands, King, Norton, and Shapton, from least to most expensive. You will need to flatten (lap) them. I would use the glass plate and wet/dry sandpaper method as it is, by far, the most economical. You can get a beginning set for less than $10 which will do a good job (Glass 9"x12"x1/8" $1.50 @ Home Depot; wet/dry paper assortment, 220 grit through 1000 grit $4.00, 2000 grit $3.00 @ AutoZone or equivalent auto parts store). If you want a more stable, less flexible "flat" product to lay your paper on, you can spend more on thicker glass or $30-40 for granite surface plates (flat to <1/10000 across surface) on eBay.

King has a pretty reasonable line that will work competently. However, from my experience, they will wear rather quickly. Don't get me wrong, they should last for at least a year or two, but they will show their wear quickly and have to be flattened rather frequently. That said, a couple combo stones can be acquired for ~$50-75, depending on what you get.

Norton costs about 25-50% more than the King stones. However, they appear to be a bit more wear resistant and may even cut more quickly. They will still require somewhat frequent flattening, but not as much as the Kings. A basic set of Norton stones will probably run about $75-125, depending.

Shapton stones appear to be the premium brands. They essentially have two levels. The "M" (including "l" and "Hippo") and Professional series. From what I can tell, the main difference between the various levels of the M-series is size (thickness and/or length/width). The actual grinding material appears to be the same. Unlike the King and Norton stones, they do not need to be soaked in water. Since they vary so widely in price, it is hard to say exactly how much they will cost, but I would imagine that it would be more than the Norton stones for equivalent grits... perhaps about 10-20% more, but with less grinding material. They may last as long?

http://www.shapton-usa.com/information/faq.html

The Professional (Pro) series are the "cats meow" and seem to be much more dense (according to the FAQ above, 30% more). However, they should not load up more rapidly. Also, they are all sharpening material, unlike the M-series. They also do not need to be soaked in water before use. The Pro stones are about 100-150% more expensive than equivalent grit Kings. However, they will last much longer. A basic set will run probably $200-300, depending.

Here is a page for Japanese knives and what stones they recommend. I would imagine that the grits would translate well to both King and Norton stones.

http://www.shapton-usa.com/stones/kuromaku/Sub-Category.php?cat=m_ck

I hope this helps.

Scott

mtnbiker

02-09-2005, 02:49 AM

After much deliberation I ordered a knife...the Kiyotsuna. I like the looks of it slightly better than the Tojiro and Fred reviewed it as slightly better as well. For right now I'm holding on ordering either a yanagi or sujikik. Just out of curiosity everyone keeps saying how thick a yanagi blade is, since I ordered my gyuto, could someone relate aproximately how much thicker a yanagi is compared to that. And out of fear of what you guys might do to me if I didn't order one(since they seem to be so good), I also ordered a MAC paring knife.
About sharpening stones though, I'm kind of sketchy on what grits I should focus on???

louisianacook

02-09-2005, 08:23 AM

1000/6000 combo stone is probably the cheapest way to cover 90% of the sharpening you will ever need to do unless you chip the edge. Then after you get that, get one higher and one lower, say a 220 and a 12000.
Lee

Scott

02-09-2005, 01:33 PM

Lee,

Yeah, I agree. I should have specified that the "basic sets" I was referring to above was for ~220, ~1000-1500, ~5000-8000, and ~12000 stones.

For King, specifically, was for a 250/1000 combo stone ($20), 1000/6000 combo stone ($20), and a 12000+ natural stone ($20, I'm going to pick up this one tomorrow and will review it).

I have a 1000/6000 stone and it works great. I would add the 250/1000 because it takes forever to get a chip out or regrind a bevel profile with the 1000 side alone. The 6000 will put on a good edge. I'm getting the 12000+ to see if it makes any difference, figuring that for $20, I can't go (badly) wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott

PS. Anyone know why Shapton has a stone that says 15000 on the box, but they refer to it as a 12000 on their web site?

Grouch

02-09-2005, 02:42 PM

Scott,
I'm curious, why are you getting the 250/1k combo stone when you've already got 1k covered in the 1k/6k stone? Why didn't you buy Fred's 220 Shapton at $30 instead?

Scott

02-09-2005, 08:21 PM

grouch,

I tried to about 10 days ago, but he had already sold out of them. You know the old saying, "You snooze, you loose!"

Fred did NOT put it that way, at all, I did! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It was my fault entirely for not being quicker.

I got the 250/1000 for the 250 side and, at $20, it was cheaper than the other options (a 220 Norton or King would have run about $35).

Scott

mtnbiker

02-15-2005, 02:59 AM

I know it's been a while since I posted, but midterms are a killer! Anyways, I've been looking for sharpeners and saw this on knifeoutlet, just wanted to see if they were any good.
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/Sharpeners/KINGSTONE.htm

Fred

02-15-2005, 08:05 AM

These are pretty inexpensive. As I've always said, grits is grits. So if you use a 1000 grit from an inexpensive stone and an identical 1000 grit from an expensive stone, the effect on your blade will be the same. The effect on your stone, however, will not be the same. The inexpensive stones wear faster and, therefore, have to be flattened more often. As you might guess, they are also easier to flatten since they wear faster.

I went through a 2" thick 1000 grit inexpensive waterstone in about 2 years back when I was doing a lot of woodworking. I have a relatively thin 1000 grit Shapton Pro stone that I have been using for 4 years and have only flattened it slightly once. I doubt I have yet to wear more than 2 or 3 percent of the stone. I expect to use it the rest of my life.

That's about it from my perspective. Pretty hard to beat the inexpensive ones for the money but they will wear relatively quickly.

Oded

02-15-2005, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As I've always said, grits is grits. So if you use a 1000 grit from an inexpensive stone and an identical 1000 grit from an expensive stone, the effect on your blade will be the same.

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I guess this is somewhat similar to the audio cables. Makes sense but some people will beg the difference between stones, mainly artificial VS natural.

Here is a somewhat edited quote from my Suisin contact on the subject:
A natural whetstone gives wonderful cutting quality to a traditional kitchen knife. However, as for performance, the artificial whetstone is superior. Natural whetstones suffer from instability, therefore, the eye that chooses a good product is necessary.
The sharpening efficiency of the natural whetstone is low.
The performance of the artificial whetstone is high.
However, the first-class chef of Japan likes a natural whetstone because the cutting quality (of the knife) that only be achieved by sharpening with a natural whetstone.
As for a natural whetstone, it has a good affinity with the carbon steel Japanese kitchen knife.
I have discovered the affinity of the steel and whetstone of a various kind.
The affinity report is popularity fairly in Japanese WebPage.

Now, whether this is true or not, I cannot say. You could claim that some of this is ‘soul polishing’, but I would still expect to find some truth in that, at least, if you are a Sushi chef that depends on exploiting 100% of his knife potential.
Now, how much practical truth there is that, I cannot say. You could claim that some of this is ‘soul polishing’, but I would not think that all these knife maker and sushi chefs are entirely wrong. But it might be the difference between 99% and 100%, not something that most of us would discern.
Unfortunately, even if I was going to buy a natural stone for a comparison, my knife skills and sharpening skills are just not good enough to be able to appreciate the difference.

Fred

02-15-2005, 10:26 AM

How would you explain the physics of it? Abrasives create scratches in the steel. Would these people suggest that one scratch is different from another if the grit, hence the size of the scratches, were the same?

Now if one were to say that a natural stone has a different amount of "abrasive power" than a man made stone, then "grits would not be grits." Or if one were to say that a natural stone feels different from a man made one, then we're getting back to the audio cable thing. But to say that the same grit size on two different abrasives will product noticeably different scratches in the steel is hard for me to visualize or understand.

Go to any of the general knife forums (fora.) There are group opinions that are shared by people who have no experience with the subject of the opinion. Yet they defend those opinions vehemently. Personally, I disagree with many of those opinions but prefer to save myself from the wrath of the group if I challenge them. I don't know if this business about natural vs. man made stones is an old and cherished group opinion or not. I only know that the conclusion stated above is illogical.

I'll be testing a natural stone in the near future. I'll be able to say something from experience then rather than just from opinion.

louisianacook

02-15-2005, 11:04 AM

Having used both extensively I think I can offer a clarification or two. Grits are grits as Fred has pointed out. The natural polish stones can not compete with the Shapton's and the Norton's in cutting speed or fineness of grit. Every natural I have tried, (4 to date) have been lower in grit than the 8000 stones avaliable. Every one I have tried have been greater than 4000, but not more than 8000. Even the $15000 stones do not get you to higher grits than the 8000 synthetics. The difference you will notice when you use the stones is that they cut slowly because they do not wear as fast as a synthetic. Remember that they are rocks, and are almost as hard as one you would pick up off the ground. It is this slow cutting I think that makes them seem finer that they really are. The reason I personally like them is because they do cut slowly, I can spend more time sharpening, which I love to do.
Lee

Oded

02-15-2005, 06:15 PM

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How would you explain the physics of it? Abrasives create scratches in the steel. Would these people suggest that one scratch is different from another if the grit, hence the size of the scratches, were the same?

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I would not as I do not know. I am not necessarily defending a certain opinion but suggesting the possibility.
That is not to say that there is no explanation.
I have been using lately something called micromesh for finishing wood. Where sand paper clouds the smooth planed wood, micromesh brings back the shine, even at the same grit level. Fish (from KF) told me about stuff that will surpass even the micromesh.
The explanation: Micromesh definitely has one. I cannot remember it all but it evolves around grit shape, arrangement, uniformity (i.e. grit tolerance) etc.
So grit might, just might not be grit always. And different abrasive do leave different scratch pattern – that much I could see with my own eyes.

Lee is obviously the most qualified around here having used both. The only thing I would say is that Mr Tatsuya claims that there should be a match between the stone and the steel. We know that natural stones, by definition, vary from sample to sample.
Assuming this is correct, it is possible that some stones or stone type will make an improvement over the artificial while other will not.
P.S I do recall that Watanabe used to claim that his final, natural stone is around 20,000. So maybe there are natural stones that are finer then 8000.
Again, I doubt whether I will be able to feel the difference myself but I still think that it is possible that others can.

louisianacook

02-15-2005, 06:29 PM

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P.S I do recall that Watanabe used to claim that his final, natural stone is around 20,000. So maybe there are natural stones that are finer then 8000

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I was aware of this statement as well. I discussed this with Ms. Ichikawa with Takeda Blacksmith over several e-mails. She indicated to me after discussing it with Mr. Shosui Takeda that the highest priced stone they offered, the Okudo Suita at $15,000 was no finer grit wise than the lower priced offerings. I asked her which one she thought was the finest and fastest cutting and she recommended the Nakayama Suita. The grit sizes don't seem to determine cost for these stones, rather the size, rarity and the # flaws present.

This is getting more complicated than I wished it to be, I enjoy my stones no matter what "grit" they might be, and I hope others that use them will as well.
Lee

Oded

02-15-2005, 06:50 PM

I guess that like with many things Japanese, there a mix of myth, tradition, science and fiction. Something that we, as 'outsiders', can appreciate as long as we accept the fact that we will probably never quite know what the ultimate truth is, assuming that there is one at all.

Fred

02-15-2005, 06:56 PM

Well, I'm dabbling here into things with which I have no personal experience. Here are a couple of comments but I don't feel very competent about them.

You said different abrasives produce different scratch patterns. Do you mean different kinds of abrasive materials with exactly the same grit or granule size? If you do then you are way ahead of me. I can't see any difference when the grits are the same or even close to the same. As an example, if one of the materials is diamond, then I'd ask how long the diamond hone had been used. Diamond tends to get slower and finer with use as the abrasive particles wear. A 220 grit waterstone and a 220 grit piece of aluminum oxide sandpaper have nothing in common as to "grit." The waterstone is faster and coarser than the sandpaper in that comparison.

I've never used micromesh but I do have several years of woodworking experience and I may be able to explain how it works without ever having seen it or used it. I'm assuming that micromesh is something like a screen with sharp edges. Is it possible that the sharp edges act more like a cabinet scraper than sandpaper? If that is the case then I can see how the finishes on wood would be very dissimilar and smoother with the mesh. Sandpaper scratches the wood while a cabinet scraper cuts it. It would seem likely to me that the micro mesh also cuts instead of scratching. I would view that as an apples and oranges type of comparison if it is true.

If I apply sandpaper to an area that has been nicely finish-planed, it will also roughen the surface. No surprise there. Could the mesh simply be a great number of little finish planes? If so, I wouldn't expect it to behave like sandpaper. I would expect it to behave like a plane. It wouldn't have anything to do with grit.

I'm not trying to undermine Japanese sharpening traditions, nor am I suggesting that natural stones are a "belief." I don't know. I just suggest that the comments I've read about them are illogical and often disagree with one another. That's why I ask and challenge.

mtnbiker

02-15-2005, 06:58 PM

I think you just hit the nail on the head. I really think alot of it has to do with tradition, as far as I what I know about Japanese culture. Also keep in mind that they are using stones for their job of producing extreme quality knives. I'm sure that if we all had been working on nothing but knives all of our lives we would see and feel a difference as well.

p.s. My gyuto arrived today, unfortunately I'll have to go to the store in order to get something to make with it, but so far I am EXTREMELY please!!!

Oded

02-15-2005, 07:07 PM

I will check my micromesh package tomorrow and post whatever I can find there.

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I'm not trying to undermine Japanese sharpening traditions, nor am I suggesting that natural stones are a "belief." I don't know. I just suggest that the comments I've read about them are illogical and often disagree with one another. That's why I ask and challenge.

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We are in agreement here.

Fred

02-15-2005, 07:49 PM

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My gyuto arrived today, unfortunately I'll have to go to the store in order to get something to make with it, but so far I am EXTREMELY please!!!

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Glad it worked out well for you. Welcome to the wacky world of Japanese kitchen cutlery.

Scott

02-17-2005, 02:53 PM

mtnbiker,

So how goes your new acquisition? Let us know and remember to provide pictures... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott

Oded

02-21-2005, 06:45 PM

Completely forgot about the micro-mesh.... here is something I found on the net:
MICRO-MESH, an optical grade abrasive sheet, is engineered to give better surface contact. The crystals in conventional abrasives are locked at irregular heights, and at randon angles.The micro mesh system allows the crystals to move-depressing to seek a common level while rotating their planing chips into alignment.
REDUCED FRICTION = BETTER SURFACES

Seems to me it is does scratches rather then cut but in a different way ...????

Scott

02-21-2005, 07:04 PM

Oded,

The way I read it is that micromesh is a "flatter", more uniform, almost directional cutting product. The description seems to state that all of the cutting surfaces are at an equal height. Also, they seem to be at the same angle. Finally, they apparently rotate into the direction of the cut to maximize the amount of material cut with each pass (though each cutting surface takes away less material since they are all level).

Also, because "all" of the cutting surfaces of the micromesh are at the same level, they all experience the same amount of pressure, effectively reducing the amount of "friction" compared to "conventional abrasives". This is because conventional abrasives are at different heights and those that are higher will be forced into the material farther and at a higher psi, increasing "friction" (resistance to the cut).

This would appear to create a flatter (assuming the substrate the micromesh is resting on is flat) and more quickly cut surface.

Clear as mud, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

How does it work in the real world? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott