New knives for slightly "disabled" homecook

[sablouuwho]

Hello,

I'm brand new here!

(Edited for clarity)

I'm a pretty decent home cook with a "slight disability"--a repetitive stress injury in both hands/wrists/elbows that causes my fingers/wrists/elbows to tire easily, causing pain in the afflicted areas at odd times of day/night. My Wusthof Classics, while in great shape, are now too heavy for me to use safely, thus I need to replace them.

I plan to get Japanese knives as I understand they are lighter and sharper, thus they will do the same work with less weight than their European counterparts--I will start with a Chef's knife (or maybe Santouko?) and a paring knife.

Ergonomics/ease of use are *the most important factor* here as my elbow/wrist cannot handle the weight of my current knives, and my fingers need to be stressed as little as possible.

I am right-handed, with smaller (but not tiny) hands.

I prefer to stick with knives I can "test drive" in the stores, so I will have to stick with brands like Global, Shun, Kyocera (fabulously light but I am scared of breakage--but still, I am tempted). Shun--felt odd but I only handled them for a moment--need to "feel" again. Global--I got to use one in my kitchen and really liked it, but alas, it was a sheeps foot shape and thus didn't "rock" so I gave it to a friend--but other shapes in Global (more "chef knife life) would probably be fine for me.

I've also heard about MAC, but don't know much about them. Don't know if I can find them locally, though.

So, what do you think are the lightest/most ergonomic Japanese knives that are readily available?

Thanks so much in advance for any ideas you have!

[Fred]

Hi, Cynthia, and welcome. Yes, Japanese knives are certainly lighter and sharper than what you are using. They also balance better which makes ergonomic sense as well.

Obviously you could "kick tires" for the common brands like Global or Shun or, perhaps, Mac. The more obscure brands may be pretty hard to find in a retail store, even in Los Angeles. Perhaps someone that lives in the area can drop in and advise you that way.

You may want to read some of the reviews and opinions on the site here. If you have specific questions, it won't be hard to get a number of opinions. You'll find nearly every Japanese knife is either owned or has been tested by someone that posts here. Thanks for dropping in on us.

[sablouuwho]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the quick reply. Is there a special "reviews" section on this site? Sorry, I just joined so I am not sure where to navigate!

Thanks again,

[Mike G.]

Hi Cynthia,

The Globals and Shuns are stocked by the larger Bed, Bath and Beyond stores in the LA area. you can see what they carry on their website. Customer service can tell you which stores carry the lines. BBB and Linens and Things both have 20% off any one item coupons available regularly. They take each others coupons and they even take expired ones. So, you can get the $162 3 piece Global set for about $130, etc.
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=101482
William Sonoma also carries both Shun and Global.
I tried both and liked them both for balance and sharpness, but I found the Global handles small for my large hands. So, I bought Shun. Their are many other really fine Japanese knives available online and probably in some knife stores. But, as another newbie, I decided to start with one good knife (Shun Santoku) and add later as I learned more about the knives and my needs. In the meantime, my old Henckels still do a good job.
Good luck and enjoy your new knives.

Mike G.

[Fred]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fred,

Thanks for the quick reply. Is there a special "reviews" section on this site? Sorry, I just joined so I am not sure where to navigate!

Thanks again,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, go to the home page and choose resources. There are some reviews there that I wrote. You can find others in this forum by searching. Take care.

[frosted]

Shun is pretty good knife compared to global. Global is better than european knives like wusthof or henckel but I don't think it's good enough. Once you tried other better brand, which is not necessarily more expensive than global, you will not satisfy with global.

You should try Tojiro DP (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/DPSwdenSteelWoodenHandleSeries.html). It has the best value. I think Tojiro DP is much better than Global and yet, it's cheaper.

If you want to see Global & Shun, go to Williams Sonoma or Sur La Table, they might carry them.

[sablouuwho]

[ QUOTE ]
Shun is pretty good knife compared to global. Global is better than european knives like wusthof or henckel but I don't think it's good enough. Once you tried other better brand, which is not necessarily more expensive than global, you will not satisfy with global.

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Why do you feel that Shun better than the Global? The only Japanese knife I've used is the aforementioned Global, so I have no experience with Shun except for briefly handling one when I was at Sur La Table. If felt "different" in my hands, but that I because I am so used to my Wusthofs. I will return to Sur La Table and give Shun another feel as I really *want* to like them! (I am an Alton Brown fan and recently met him at a book signing and I generally do well with his recommendations for equipment.)

Please remember that my criteria may be a little different than most peoples in that handle comfort/ease of overall use is the MOST important factor for me--more so that the merits of the steel or various types of knife construction. I know that probably seems a little counter-intuitive as knife-enthusiasts, like all kitchen equipment enthusiasts, like to know their technical details, and I am *usually* not an exception. But I've just come to realize that the type comfort and ease of handling is more important to me than Rockwell numbers, etc.

If it were a car, I guess I'd compare my Wusthofs to an SUV--it gets you where you want to go, but uses a lot of gas and isn't energy efficient (in this case the energy being in my hands and resulting in pain after use.) And, like an SUV with it's high center of gravity--the Wusthofs are balanced all wrong for my weakened hands and thus I am afraid of an accident.

To continue to car analogy, I am looking for a more energy efficient model with a lower center of gravity (lighter weight and better balance), plus, with power steering so the driver (cook) doesn't have to do all the work.

[Richard]

Hey Cynthia, welcome the world of online knife discussions! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think when most people think the Shun is better than the Global, it's because the steel is harder and better, and thus will be sharper and won't dull as easily. But it shouldn't be the end all and be all for all cases, such as one like yours. But imho, Global is not really that good a value, they are the slightly better than German knives in terms of cutting performance, but pale compared to pretty much all other Japanese knives that we discuss online. Some of these other Japanese brands are cheaper than Global as well.

As for the Shuns, while they are among my favorites (I have a whole set, as well as other Japanese knives), and in terms of performance, I think they are among the best that are wide available in North America, their handles are unique, and while some may like them a lot, others may not find them comfortable. Also Shuns tend to be a little bit heavier than typical Japanese knives, but not as heavy as German knives though. The handles are also a bit bigger. So don't force yourself to like them, even if Alton Brown is your hero /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I would also agree with frosted's recommendation of the Tojiro DP line, they are a great value, and their handles are quite similar to Wusthof Classic handles to help ease the transition...but the handle isn't all that ergonomic (and neither is the Classic, imho), but it just gets the job done. The weight of the DP line would probably be much more comfortable for you though compared to the Wusthof.

Other suggestions that I would have are Macs, there are many different lines, but you can find them in North America. I'd stay away from the funky ones with the rounded tips. Also the bolsterless ones are superlight, and it might cause fatigue cause you'll have provide more force to make cuts. Try to find the Mac professional line that has bolsters.

Another suggestion are the Misono UX10 line, they are very highly regarded in terms of performance and ergonomics, unfortunately they are temporarily sold out everywhere...both at www.korin.com (http://www.korin.com) and www.japanesechefsknife.com. (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com.)

A final suggestion is this MVB line from Masahiro (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/MASAHIROMVBSeries.html). We don't discuss Masahiro knives as much, and unfortunately I don't have any experience with them, but I have heard good things about them. Masahiro has the largest market share for kitchen knives in Japan, and this line is reasonably priced and appears to have good finish. The handles look very typical of Western handles and hopefully should be easy to transition to.

I would probably recommend a gyuto/chef knife in the 210 mm size, it's very similar in size to the standard 8 in chef, but will be much lighter. While the 240 mm size is most often recommended, because the extra length makes it very versatile, I think 210 mm is a safer recommendation to minimize weight and transition effort.

My highest recommendation would definitely be the Misono UX10 if the price is ok with you, and if you can be a bit patient (supposedly www.japanesechefsknife.com (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com) will have them in stock within 2-6 weeks). The performance is excellent, balance is perfect, and has some interesting innovations in terms of ergonomic design. The attention to detail on this line is superb, and I've heard nothing but good things about them...if I didn't already have so many knives, this line would be among the top of list for considerations for the next one to get. What do the rest of you guys think?

[sablouuwho]

[ QUOTE ]
I think when most people think the Shun is better than the Global, it's because the steel is harder and better, and thus will be sharper and won't dull as easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, that is v. helpful info.



[ QUOTE ]
As for the Shuns...tend to be a little bit heavier than typical Japanese knives, but not as heavy as German knives though. The handles are also a bit bigger. So don't force yourself to like them, even if Alton Brown is your hero /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I will give them another feel at Sur La Table. Bummed to hear they're heavier than more Japanese knives as weight seems to be a big part of my problem. (My doctor, in all seriousness, told me I really shouldn't be carrying my own grocery bags...too much strain/weight).

[ QUOTE ]
...frosted's recommendation of the Tojiro DP line, they are a great value, and their handles are quite similar to Wusthof Classic handles to help ease the transition...though it's unfortunate you can't try them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious re: "the transition"? There indeed was a little weirdness going on when I tried the Global. I thought it was due to the blade shape (non-rocking). Have I missed something?


[ QUOTE ]
Other suggestions that I would have are Macs, there are many different lines, but you can find them in North America. I'd stay away from the funky ones with the rounded tips. Also the bolsterless ones are superlight, and it might cause fatigue cause you'll have provide more force to make cuts. Try to find the Mac professional line that has bolsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I will check out MAC and the other brands that you mention as well. Though I do suspect, while there may be "better" knives out there with more impressive steel, etc., that I will wind up buying something that I can try locally. Which means Shun, Global, MAC (I think I can find this locallly) and, dare I say it, Kyocera (maybe only for a paring knife--it weighs nothing).

By the way, I met Alton Brown at a book signing recently--he was super nice and despite the load of fans at the book store he took the time to talk to each and every one of us, and at one point he even came out of the bookstore to talk to the long line of people waiting to get in to see him--making sure we were "doing okay" and supplied us with the same comic relief he embodies on his show.

[frosted]

I like Shun better than Global because the blade is harder, just like what Richard said.
When you use global, you have to steel your knife quite often. You will feel that the blade will get slightly duller after one prep-work or two.

Tojiro Powdered High Speed Steel, in Fred's review, has very hard blade. He use the knife for one week without even steeling it once and it's still very sharp.

If you use global once or twice without steeling it, you will cry when you cut onion with it the next time you use it.

[frosted]

If you want very light knife, Kiyotsuna Josaku (http://bladegallery.com/knives/knife.asp?knifeid=1952&pics=small&alt=one) 210mm Gyuto is very light. It's only 5.9oz (just slightly heavier than global.
Global 200mm Chef's knife (G2) is 5.7oz, and Shun 8" Chef's knife is 7.7oz.

You will not able to try the Kiyotsuna as it's not available at most store, but IMO it's a good knife. It's better than Shun, in terms of performance.

[Richard]

[ QUOTE ]
Tojiro Powdered High Speed Steel, in Fred's review, has very hard blade. He use the knife for one week without even steeling it once and it's still very sharp.

[/ QUOTE ]
I own one of these, and I wouldn't hesitate at all to recommend it on the basis of performance, but the ergonomics of the handle aren't the greatest (it's the same handle as on the Tojiro DP line). Not that it's *bad* per se, but others in its price categories have more ergonomically designed and comfortable handles. Going back to the car analogy, with the Tojiro powder steel, you're getting the best engine/performance in its class, but you're sacrificing refinement of the interior, style, ride smoothness, etc.

What do the rest of you guys think about the suggestion of the Misono UX10? When I think ergonomics, this line always comes back to mind. Though unfortunately I don't own one myself, I have the highest regard for it based on others opinions of it (though in terms of pure performance, it's not the absolute leader). I'd almost be willing to step out on a limb and offer to buy the Misono UX10 from you, Cynthia, if you didn't like it...but unfortunately I would catch hell for buying yet another knife. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Fred]

OK, I'll comment a little more. The Misono UX-10 has a pretty beefy handle. I'm guessing but I think Cynthia may not like it. It is the best handle in the business for me personally but that doesn't make it the best for her. The Tojiro handle is a little smaller - something like your Wusthof.

The Global you tried, Cynthia, is not designed for chopping. You would do better with a G4 or G2, I think. Global may be a good choice for you since they are quite light, even compared to other Japanese knives like the Misono or Tojiro. The Shun certainly have better blades but, if they don't feel good to you, then I agree that they may not be your best choice.

One other point. Forget the idea of ceramic knives, particularly as a parer. The blades on these knives are brittle so they can't be ground to a very sharp edge without becoming chipped. They slice well enough but I certainly wouldn't choose a ceramic parer for peeling a peach. I honestly don't think it could do it, the edge is that dull.

Last point. We are comparing the Japanese knives to Wusthof so any of them will be lighter and, in my opinion anyway, more comfortable to use thanks to better balance. So by going to Japanese cutlery - any Japanese cutlery - you're headed in the right direction.

[Richard]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I'll comment a little more. The Misono UX-10 has a pretty beefy handle. I'm guessing but I think Cynthia may not like it. It is the best handle in the business for me personally but that doesn't make it the best for her.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's hard to guess what another person will and won't find comfortable...I was intending the 210 mm gyuto though, which has a smaller handle than the 240 mm (according to pics anyway). Sizewise, I'm guessing think it should be inline with something like a Henckels Prof-S or something.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/images/Img100.jpg

[Hans]

I have the 180mm UX-10, and even though I have quite large hands it fits like a glove, I'm not sure if it's really true that the 240 has a larger handle or not, but it sure looks like it. Anyways, it is a very good knife and I'm extremely happy with it.

[Fred]

Every UX-10 has a different sized handle. They do that to get the balance right on every size. They even get the sujihikis balanced properly.

[Scott]

Cynthia,

Both Richard and Fred have given you very good advice (as usual). It is a shame that more Japanese knife brands are not available more broadly as those that are, are not, IMO, a good representation of the "breed". The Shuns are pretty robust, but they seem to be a bit heavy and the handles are "love 'em or hate 'em". They are also slightly handle, as opposed to blade, heavy.

The Globals, though made in Japan have steels that are more similar to European knives than Japanese. They will get dull more quickly and require more frequent sharpening even with frequent steeling... something that may be a problem for you.

I'm going to be ordering a Tojiro DP wooden handle santoku for my mother-in-law this week. I should have it within a week after ordering (japanesechefsknife.com is well renowned for their speedy and good customer service) and will be able to more directly comment on it once I get it. FWIW, other than some slight fit and finish issues (but still comparable to European knives, just not up to the better Japanese lines), I have yet to hear of anyone who didn't like them. They also seem to be among the best values available.

IMO, it isn't unreasonable to have a good Japanese knife that will hold its edge (with some light and correctly done steeling) for 6+ months of moderate home use before needing to be sharpened. This compares to 2-4 weeks with the European brands (Messermeister a possible exception).

I also wholeheartedly agree with Fred on the ceramic knives. They are tremendously light. However, they chip easily (I'm missing about 1/4" off the tip of mine) and once the factory edge is gone, they are almost disposable, unless you want to pay about 25-35% of the original cost to get it sharpened (and it is hard to find someone who really can). The better Japanese steels are almost as hard, but sharpen relatively easily and you can steel them between sharpenings.

Scott

[KneeKnocks]

I would second Richard's suggestions of MAC Pro and Masahiro MVB. Both have more Westernized (i.e., larger) handles than the Shuns, which may be important to you as the knives can be gripped securely with a more open-fisted grip than the narrower handle of a Shun. The similarity of shapes between their handles and the ones you've been using may also be a plus. Can't say I've used them all or weighed any of them, but I think MACs are the lightest steel kitchen knives I've ever used. Both brands are excellent values, and pretty cheap compared to Shun, Global, Misono UX-10, etc.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Cynthia, hopefully you can find a store with a wide selection of Macs to try out...in regards to KneeKnocks' comment, the Macs w/o bolsters are very light, but have very good performance. If you find that it's too light for you, there are also Mac lines that have bolsters, although these may start around $100 US for a ~8 in chef knife.

Good values of bolstered knives are the previously mentioned Masahiro MVB or Tojiro DP lines, and have very typical Westernized handles. I think you will likely get slightly better fit and finish on the Masahiro, but slightly better cutting performance on the Tojiro.

With regards to KneeKnocks comment on the size of Mac and Masahiro handles relative to the Shun, I think that would be true for large knives (like a 10 in chef), but not the case with smaller chopping knives (e.g. santoku, 8 in chef, etc.). This is because Shun uses the same size handle across all its knives (and the same size for the smaller knives like paring, utility, etc), so while the Shun 10 in chef has a relatively small handle, the Santoku and 8 in chef have a relatively large handle for the knife size, though those handles are all the same size (I hope I'm making sense). Anyway, the best thing is for you to go check them out in person, and that can be easily done with the Shuns (and hopefully with Macs too).

[Sid Post]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

I'm brand new here!

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a pretty decent home cook with a "slight disability"--a repetitive stress injury in both hands/wrists/elbows that causes my fingers/wrists/elbows to tire easily, causing pain in the afflicted areas at odd times of day/night. My Wusthof Classics, while in great shape, are now too heavy for me to use safely, thus I need to replace them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I can appreciate your situation like few others, THANKFULLY most people do not know what we speak of. What you are describing is a terrible thing, I know it myself. I started my journey down this path by adding lanyards to my kitchen knives so I would not loose toes when I dropped my knives. Heavy knives like a Wusthof or, sharp ones like my Japanese blades will do real damage when they fall from countertop height.

[ QUOTE ]
Ergonomics/ease of use are *the most important factor* here as my elbow/wrist cannot handle the weight of my current knives, and my fingers need to be stressed as little as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean no disrespect to any of the previous posts or the people who made them but, I personally believe most of the recommendations will result in a knife handle that will not prove satisfactory for YOU specifically. Forget which steel is harder, which knife is prettier, etc. You have to be able to grasp and use it safely and reliably without pain.

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer to stick with knives I can "test drive" in the stores, so I will have to stick with brands like Global, Shun, Kyocera (fabulously light but I am scared of breakage--but still, I am tempted). Shun--felt odd but I only handled them for a moment--need to "feel" again. Global--I got to use one in my kitchen and really liked it, but alas, it was a sheeps foot shape and thus didn't "rock" so I gave it to a friend--but other shapes in Global (more "chef knife life) would probably be fine for me.

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I understand your preference to test drive first but, that restricts your choices severely. I have a great deal of confidence in the ability of the people who post here regularly to "pick" a knife for me when I ask very detailed and pointed questions about the qualities I value.

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I've also heard about MAC, but don't know much about them. Don't know if I can find them locally, though.

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Los Angeles dealers (http://www.macknife.com/page16.html) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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So, what do you think are the lightest/most ergonomic Japanese knives that are readily available?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Mac SA-80 (http://www.macknife.com/page7.html). It is unconventional but, it WORKS. I love its large rounded handle. It is easy to grasp because my hand curls gently around its large rounded handle. This requires less effort in terms of grip strength. It is also lightweight so it is low effort to lift. It won't evoke the passion from the knife enthusiasts but, it works well for me.

If you decide to go with a mainstream Tojiro, Masamoto, Hattori, etc., get one of the larger Gyuto so you get a larger handle. A lot of the 210mm Gyuto have small handles which require more grip strength to grasp then I want. I will take my 300mm Masamoto VG-10 model over an 8 inch Henckels/Wusthof any day without hesitation. A tight "curl" of my hand around a small knife handle is misery if my wrists bother me at all.

Koki will take good care of you no matter which knife you choose. Checkout her site out at JapaneseChefsKnife (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/MAC.html#Z-INDEX:%20105;%20LEFT:%20507px;%20POSITION:%20stati c;%20TOP:%201882px). Yes, she is in Japan but, she fluently types English. She will also put a knife in your hand faster then any other mail order or web dealer around. I can't say I buy exclusively from her, but it is rare for me to go somewhere else for a "factory" Kitchen knife these days.

[RETREVR]

I have a dirty little secret.
I picked up a global chefs knife at a store once and thought that the fit of that particular model was supurb. I sided with the shun for harder steel. However, if I was looking for compfort alone, the global would be the best I have felt so far. That is not to say that it would be as compfortable after an hour of use. But I think it would be a good choice. Just make sure you choose the proper size and shape, or get a few.
The handle on my 270mm Tojiro was blocky. The smaller sizes my have smaller handles. It was the first knife I actiaully had to sand down the the handle to make it more comfortable. It would not be on the top of my list for ergonomics.
That is something to keep in mind also....Certain wood handles can be sanded down to help the fit.
My guess is that no matter what recomendations you get, you are just going to have to handle a few knives to find the one that works for you.