looking for a Yanagi, recommendations?

[jonathan]

In the kitchen, I've been using my boss' Bunmei yanagi, and I definitely prefer the traditional japanese styled slicer to a western-style, but the Bunmei seems to have a soft steel. I've been looking around and reading a bit about the Yanagis, but they all look the same to me, and I don't know which would be a good choice. I am willing to spend up to $150.

By the way, Fred, after using a Misono Ux10 santokou and reading yoru reviews of the Gyutous, I decided to buy the 210mm gyutou. Thanks for the reviews. They're great.


jonathan

[Richard]

Though I don't claim to be an expert with yanagis, I think this is a good overlooked value, the Kanefusa Fujiwara FKV line (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HKVSeries.html), which is made with one of the VGold series steels (probably VG10?). I own a 240 mm yanagi and 150 mm petty from their FKM line, and it's quite good for the price I paid, though I wish I had gotten a 270 mm or 300 mm FKV one instead.

This line is about half or less when compared to the Masamoto VG series yanagis.

[Sid Post]

When I first looked at these many years ago, I considered Bunmei because of the price. I googled around the 'net and found a lot of write ups on forums and personal web-sites that really trashed this line of knives and decided to save my money. Now, I think it is more of a situation where you get what you pay for.

Suisin 240mm Inox (stainless) models have been on Ebay for $200 which, while $50 out of your price range seems to be a very good value if you can live with the 240mm length. I have a 240mm model and find it too short for use on fish.

I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for the knife in your price range today but, I'm sure one of the other forum'ites will.

[mikemac]

Fred may still have a Kurouchi in 240 from Shin Watanabe for $80, and his professional line 'white' in 270mm is close at $179

[bkrownd]

You don't "get what you pay for" (my pet peeve cliche), or my Henckels would be more than twice as good as my Tojiro. You DO get better value when you do more intelligent research, though.

[jonathan]

Ok, I hear so much about Watanabe. I finally found his site, and I did see the Yanagis at around 180-250... and those ebony handles he has are gorgeous. But who is this guy? Why is he so popular among you knife fanatics?? Are his knives of a higher quality than larger brand names?

Should I shell out the cash for a Watanabe knife??

[mikemac]

Between this site and "KF", you'll find some really knowledgable individuals, and they give strong praise to most of Mr. Watanabe's offerings. I checked some prices at Japan Chef Knife for Masamoto yanagi's, and the prices seem similiar, starting around $175 for a 270mm, and various choices which could cost you lots more. It's about choice...JCK can probably have a Masamoto in your hand in 4-6 days. Watanabe could be 3-4 weeks. Do you want to buy a hand made product from an individual, or a 'commercially' manufactured product from a big company? Both will cut. To really muddy the waters, a Murray Carter yanagi-ba from the Fukugo-zai line (still 'similiar' to above) in 270 (9 sun) would run about $150, after recent price increase, and Mr. Carter is also very highly regarded - plus he has more "smoke and mist" going for him... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[louisianacook]

They are handmade. There are several of us here, including myself, that have his knives, and I don't recall anyone having a major issue with any. For the price you are getting a knife that would cost 40-60% more from most any other maker if it was handmade.

[chefjeff]

Watanbe knives are loved by so many of us in my opinion because they are handmade and offer excellent value per dollar. A santoku for $90 is tough to find anywhere in the handmade department. I have three of his badboys and one more on the way. I love them all. They are hard knives that hold an edge extremely well. He also has a comprehansive benifits package, as he states it, giving you free sharpening, etc. for the life of the knife minus shipping.

[Fred]

Thanks for the kind words, Jonathan. If it is of interest I have a very lightly used kuroichi style 240mm yanagi from Watanabe for sale in the Trading Post forum.

Note that the Watanabe kuroichi style aren't really very traditional in the sense that they are significantly thinner in the blade than the traditional yanagis. They cut just fine but they don't feel the same as the other traditional knives since they are lighter. Yes, he makes traditional ones as well in either kasumi or honyaki style and they are as good as any made in Japan.

[RETREVR]

My next purchase will probably be a yanagi. I have a gyuto with ebony handle from watenabe and really like it. I am on the fence about who I will get a yanagi from. I can get a 270 kasumi in Blue steel from watenabe for about $200. Or I can get a White steel kasumi from Masamoto for about $200. Each has its merits. For steel alone I would lean towards watenabe. Then I think I would want an upgraded handle which is $30 for octagon. Then I think I might as well have the ebony to match the gyuto I already have from him. The ebony octagon is $70. So all of a sudden I am spending close to $300.
The masamoto seems to already have the octagon. white steel would probably be fine. I will not be using it all day every day like my gyuto. If I were I would definitely go for blue steel. So my quandry is really betwene three knives: The white Masamoto, the blue watenabe, or the blue watenabe dressed-up. That is not to say that there are probably two or three other makers that I could consider in the $200 range before pulling the trigger. The watenabe blue steel with ebony handle starts to make a lot of sense at less than $300 when you start shopping around for similar knives. The comparable masamoto would be a blue steel honkasumi which is a little bit north of $400...with non-ebony handle. Then again, watenabes do not come with a saya unless you pay for it...$70.
I will probably land on watenabe, because I will be getting a good value on a very good blade.
It just a good thing I can't aford one right now anyway.
I will probably just pick up one of these to tided me over:
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01.003.40&dept _id=12607

[Fred]

I have a 270 shiroko kasumi yanagi from Masamoto. I use it a lot and think a lot of it. I recently put a togidashi sharpening on it.

However, the cream of the crop is the Suisin Inox Honyaki. Mine is just 240mm but it is an outstanding knife in every respect. It is beautifully polished, has a beautiful exotic hardwood octagonal handle, a hard forged honyaki blade and, best of all, it is stainless. Incredible knife. Think long and hard about it. I think the extra money is very well spent on this product. Good cooking.

[bkrownd]

[ QUOTE ]
My next purchase will probably be a yanagi. I have a gyuto with ebony handle from watenabe and really like it. I am on the fence about who I will get a yanagi from.


[/ QUOTE ]

I got the Shun yanagi. I haven't tried it yet, I'm just looking at it so far. Is it typical for the longer yanagi blades to curve up at the tip? I could not tell from the catalog photos, so when I received it I was surprised to find out that this one curves kind of like a cutlass.

[Oded]

The shun is slightly different from a traditional yanagiba.
Great knife nevertheless.

[miles]

I bought a Shun from Ebay about two months ago. I like it quite a bit. It doesn't have quite as much 'wow factor' as a true traditional yanagi, but it's made of VG10, the price is certainly right, compared to many others, and the fit and finish is very good, indeed. I've used it to break down tuna and salmon. It's performed quite well. I expect you'll have a similar experience.

Mike

[RETREVR]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a 270 shiroko kasumi yanagi from Masamoto. I use it a lot and think a lot of it. I recently put a togidashi sharpening on it.

However, the cream of the crop is the Suisin Inox Honyaki. Mine is just 240mm but it is an outstanding knife in every respect. It is beautifully polished, has a beautiful exotic hardwood octagonal handle, a hard forged honyaki blade and, best of all, it is stainless. Incredible knife. Think long and hard about it. I think the extra money is very well spent on this product. Good cooking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just noticed that Korin has the masamoto 270 VG10 yanagi on Ebay for $366 w/saya.
JCK has them for $395.
Anyway, my point being...That puts the masamoto VG10 right there with the suisin.
To be honest, I can't afford either one right now. I am not sure which one would be the best buy. Anyone have feelings on which is superior....Inox or VG10. I have never used inox so don't know how to compare it. I do know that the vg10 is some awfully nice steel.
The suisin is honyaki and the VG10 is laminated. I don't think that there is as major of a quality difference in these constructions as in carbon knives. The difference in a aoko hongasumi and a honyaki are substantial in quality and price. I just don't see the inox honyaki to be that far ahead of the laminated blade...if at all. Am I wrong?

[louisianacook]

The Suisin Inox honyaki is made from SANDVIK 19C27, a swedish stainless with .95% C I am not sure what VG10 has carbon wise. Maybe the price increase for the Suisin is because it is completely steel (honyaki) opposed to iron and steel, laminate/kasumi. Price of materials, more steel = more $$$. I have also been told the Suisin is 61-63 HRC, I think VG10 is 59-61 approx.
Either would be excellent I would think.
Lee

[RETREVR]

The masamoto is all stainless....just two types

[louisianacook]

That's right, sorry. You were asking why the Masamoto is comparable to the Suisin, I don't know the answer to that, seems the name Masamoto commands a higher price b/c they have been around longer. I think the people at Korin will tell you that the Suisin is superior though. I think they believe that Masamoto is making too many knives, and their quality has slipped.
Lee /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[chefjeff]

After reading Freds excellent review of the Suisin Inox and doing some of my own research I'm sold on it. Just saving up the money to drop on a 300mm. It's a truley unique product Suisin has there.
Does anyone know if they are the only makers of stainless honyaki knives or not?

[Octaveman]

I too want to get a yanagi and am at odds as to which one to get. These are what I'm considering:


Watanabe 300mm white steel with Ebony octagon handle and cover = $353

Suisin Inox Hanyaki 300mm includes cover (non ebony) = $417

Murray Carter High Grade, white #1, ebony handle, no cover = $330

Murray Carter 300mm Pro series ebony = $330



All of the above are considerations but honestly I'm inclined to go with Watanabe or Suisin because I want a Carter Wa-Gyuto. I really did want an ebony handle and octagon. The Suisin falls short on both those but is the knife worth not having exactly what I wanted in a handle?

I've held a Watanabe 330mm and it was beautiful. I haven't seen the Suisin except in pictures. It's amazing how that affects where I'm leaning. For you owners out there, is the Suisin worth the extra $60 over Watanabe even w/o my handle desires?

I can't decide,
Bob

[Oded]

I have not held the Suisin INOX honyaki but I held others and own two masterpieces from Suisin.
They are as good as it goes. However, with all fairness I cannot justify the extra price unless:
- You want stainless (the other knives are not)
- You want Honyaki.
The reason for the high prices honyaki knives command is not so much due to increased amount of steel (at $10.5/lib for Aoko #2A in the US, that cannot be the reason). Mainly, forging honyaki is a very delicate task, done by the more experienced (and expensive) craftsmen and the failure rate is high.

If you prefer Suisin, I am sure they can also make one with Ebony handle. I can PM you a contact email - let me know if you are interested.

As I said, both Watanabe and Murray Carter (I do not own a Carter knife, but I assume it is comparable to the Watanabe) should be as good as the Suisin and the Carbon steel will have the edge on performance but will stain.

P.S the carbon percentage of VG10 is 0.95% - 1.05%

[mikemac]

What about a Murray Carter 270 or 300mm Fukugo-zai Yanagi-ba?
Right now I think the 300mm would be about $165 plus shipping, plus waiting (he's backordered). I think it's the same blade as the 'high grade' series without the polishing, and this is after his very recent price increase. A 270 would be something like $15 less
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking around and reading a bit about the Yanagis, but they all look the same to me, and I don't know which would be a good choice. I am willing to spend up to $150.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Octaveman]

Fred, is the weight of the Suisin yanagi traditional weight or lighter?

What about sharpening it...is a honyaki knife sharpened any differently that a kasumi knife?

[Fred]

[ QUOTE ]
Fred, is the weight of the Suisin yanagi traditional weight or lighter?

What about sharpening it...is a honyaki knife sharpened any differently that a kasumi knife?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good question. I don't know. The Suisin is a 240mm and my traditional kasumi knife is a 270. Obviously the kasumi knife weighs more.

As to sharpening, yes they work the same. I've found sharpening the Suisin to be about the same as my Masamoto kasumi yanagi.

[Oded]

Here is the information I got from Suisin, summarised with few words changed to improve clarity.
Fred… this post contains commercial information but I still thought it is ok for this forum. Feel free to move it to the Trade forum if appropriate.
************************************************** **************************************************
The INOX 300mmYanagiba standard is 41,200 yen.
These specification are for Ichii handle and wood sheath.
The weight is 220g.
The craftsman who this was authorised by the government is manufacturing it.
Japanese name[call] "Dentou Kougei Shi"

Besides, there is Ginsanko. (I have asked about material, hardness etc)
Even this is a little cheap to rust with a strong material (not sure what that means)
300mm Yanagiba standard is 28,700yen.
This is not Honyaki. The weight is 230g.
The craftsman who even this kitchen knife was authorised by the government
makes it.

I completed the kitchen knife of a new material.
It is ZDP189. I have 300mmYanagiba. This is very expensive. But, I think that the kitchen knife that cuts best in the world with HRC 66 or 68. This is very hard. It is difficult to sharpen so I set up it to HRC64. (I have asked whether this is a honyaki / laminated)
Aoniko Honyaki HRC is 61or63.
ZDP189 have 3% Carbon and 20% Chromium.

Other (expensive) options:

1. SUISIN INOX HONYAKI series Ebony handle, ebony sheath, 300mm: 71,000yen

2. Plus one edition, 300mm: 108,000yen
http://www.suisin.co.jp/Japanese/dream/images/plus-one-300.JPG

3. Limited edition, 300mm: 98,000yen
http://www.suisin.co.jp/Japanese/dream/images/limded-300.JPG


4.Special version, 300mm: 180,000yen
http://www.suisin.co.jp/Japanese/dream/images/dream-sp300.JPG


No.1.2.3. I are in stock, number 4 is special order
INOX HONYAKI is made with hand work.
The Sakai cutlery technique is used, to this.
The material is SANDVIK 19C27, C:0.95% Cr:13.5% etc.... HRC61
This kitchen knife has stickiness (edge retention) very. So, I will feel it firmly over the HRC61 numerical value. But, This is the kitchen knife that is easy to sharpen.

[chefjeff]

Just a word on the Murray Carter Fukogo-zai yanagiba, It will be a double bevel, not single. His Japanese pro series has the single bevel and the cost would go up considerably. A 300mm would be around $350.

[Oded]

Some more information from Suisin that might be of interest to other people. I have rephrased my questions but left the answers untouched.

Q: Can you give more information about the Ginsanko steel?
A: Ginsanko is good steel. HRC is about 59or60.
This material is the stainless steel that the Hitachi steel making made.
Carbon:0.95%-1.10% Chromium:13.0%-14.5%
It is easy to sharpen and cut long [long lasting].
But, It is inferior from INOX steel.

Q: Will you consider making Honyaki ZDP189 Yanagiba?
A: Yes, I am completing ZDP189 300mm Honyaki Yanagiba.
It is mirror face specification. I tried it the sharpening.
Wow Wow Wow Vary Sharp Cutting Quality!!.

Q: Do you know Cowry-X? I think it is very similar to ZDP189... which one is
better?
A: Yes, I know Cowry-X. As for this material the steel makers stopped
production. I tried the production in Cowry-X. But, there is not future. I changed it to
ZDP189. I think that ZDP189 is good. Cowry-X will be excellent for the knife.
I think that ZDP189 is fitting the Japanese kitchen knife.

[Scott]

Oded,

I just love reading these English replies! It just reinforces to me how difficult English can be as a second language, especially when coming from various Asian languages with their different contexts. It makes me want to hear how my Spanish sounds to a native... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm surprised to hear that Cowry-X is being discontinued. It would be interesting to know why and if ZDP-189 (and others that are similar) have an advantage over Cowry-X. Though it sounds like he believes that Cowry is more appropriate for field knives than kitchen cutlery?

Also, It looks like your source is very favorably impressed with the ZDP-189. It sounds like it can take quite an edge. I wonder how difficult it is to sharpen...?

Thanks for the updates! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott

[Fred]

Auque pase la mayoria de mis primeros trece anos en Cuba y aunque el espanol is mi lengua nativa puedes practicar conmigo si quieres.

English is a tough language to learn as a second language. In the first place it derives from two different roots - the Germanic (house, church) and the Latin Romance (domestic, ecclesiastical.) Then there is the issue of spelling and pronunciation - though, tough, through as examples or to, too , two. Then to make it even tougher, the English language has more than 3 million words in it while a full vocabulary of spanish is less than 200,000 words and all words are pronounced as they are spelled and spelled as they are pronounced. I had a pretty easy time learning English as a second language because I came to the U.S. permanently at an early age and so I was forced to learn it quickly. I know Oded is not a native English speaker but speaks like a native and, obviously, that is because he moved to the U.K. Living with it is the best way to learn a second language (or third or fourth.)

[Oded]

True... until today I can sometime write something that looks correct to me but is just not the way a native speaker would phrase it.

I have been horrible at English classed in school, until, at the age of 14, I became a radio amateur. Within two years I could speak relatively fluent English.
As difficult as English can be due to the huge vocabulary and the idiosyncratic phonetics it is also has on of the simplest grammars. Compare that to Hebrew were everything is so structured, gender dependent etc… English people learning Hebrew have at least as hard time as Hebrew speakers learning English. The concept of males and females using different words to say exactly the same thing is incomprehensible for lots of people.

I having some ideas around learning Japanese (surprise surprise…) and I wonder how difficult would that be.

I gave Tatsuya from Suisin the URL for this forum. He already read a few posts and have been impressed by the knowledge and enthusiasm of the people here. With increased emphasise Suisin is putting toward exporting Japanese quality knives to the west, I am sure this forum will provide a source of valuable information.

I would like actually to take this opportunity and invite Tatsuya to post here as well, regardless of the language barrier. His English, as we all saw, makes perfect sense and is nothing to be ashamed of... I am sure we will all benefit by his expertise here.

[Fred]

Yes, it would be a treat to have Tatsuya post here. We need to be careful not to scare him away. I have about 100 questions I'd like to ask just for starters.

I used to be an active radio amateur myself some years ago. I still maintain the call sign KC9R although I don't have a station at the moment. 73.

[Oded]

I must have asked him a few hundered questions by now so I might have asked some of those question would like to ask.

[Oded]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, It looks like your source is very favorably impressed with the ZDP-189. It sounds like it can take quite an edge. I wonder how difficult it is to sharpen...?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully, these qoute will give you an idea though not exactly an answer.
I am convinced anyway, so all I need is to start saving for a ZDP189 Honyaki Usuba... knowing how much the much cheaper Aoichiko (type A) would have cost, this is going to be a long long saving... Unless I decide to sell my house and live in a tent with my Usuba /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I completed the kitchen knife of a new material.
It is ZDP189. I have 300mmYanagiba.
This is very expensive. But, I think that the kitchen knife that cuts most
most in the world.
HRC 66 or 68. This is very hard. It is difficult to sharpen in this.
So, I set up it to HRC64. Aoniko Honyaki HRC is 61or63.
ZDP189 have 3% Carbon and 20% Chromium.
So This material is strong in rust there is stickiness.
Furthermore sharp cutting quality comes out because it is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I make Usuba, I choose ZDP189. This material cuts best.
Aoko super and ZDP189 does way of cutting that differed.
I like way of cutting of ZDP189.
This is the new material to me and be fresh

[/ QUOTE ]

[RETREVR]

What exactly are you doing with these knives oded?
Are you dismembering victims or something?

[Oded]

The thought has crossed my mind... not surprising considering my reputation as murderer of innocent chopping boards :0
Ok... only one board really but nevertheless.

On a more serious note, I am into Asian cooking and, being able to cut nice, thin slices is something I enjoy doing even if it is just cherry tomatoes for a salad.
Nothing that my old Henckel Santuko wouldn't handle but it even more fun using an exotic knife no one else, this forum's members included, has /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif