chinese cleavers

[sudsy909]

hey everybody i wanted some advice i'll direst this question to andy because of his knowledge of cleavers everybody feel free to add input though what would you recommend to someone not used to using a chinese cleaver what brands and sizes would you recommend any info would be appreciated thanks

[Andy777]

I assume you want a thin veggie type cleaver. The next question is how much do you want to spend. For under $50 you can get the CCK that I got for Octaveman, probably the best for that range. If you want a $150-250 japanese cleaver then you will have a lot more options it just depends on the exact traits you want and how much you want to spend. Shun makes a great cleaver which can be found on ebay for a good price but it is MUCH too small in my book. Same with the budget line of Masahiros. I prefer the larger cleavers 22-24cm but I don't know what you want. If you want a more expensive cleaver pm me and we can discuss it since it would be a loooong discussion. If you want to try out a cheaper cleaver contact me and I could arrange to get you a CCK, or check out www.wokshop.com (http://www.wokshop.com) they have several btwn $10-20 you could experiment with like the one Fred bought here. (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/173/an/0/page/9#173)

Don't forget to check out my other "wearing out my welcome" chinese cleaver posts here (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/838/an/0/page/7#838) and here (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1686/an/0/page/1#1686).

Basically if you let me know what you are looking for and how much you want to spend we can find the perfect knife for you.

[Octaveman]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want a more expensive cleaver pm me and we can discuss it since it would be a loooong discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no you don't!! Bring it on out here for all to see. I for one would like to see what's out there and opinions of them. If I end up wanting a higher end cleaver I'd like to have this thread as a future reference.

Bob

[Andy777]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh no you don't!! Bring it on out here for all to see. I for one would like to see what's out there and opinions of them. If I end up wanting a higher end cleaver I'd like to have this thread as a future reference.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok come one, come all, bring on the questions and I'll do my best to answer them or find out the answer.

I just updated this (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/925/an/0/page/0#925) list for starters. I have also been compiling a list weight per square cm of blade area on all the redily available high end cleavers to know blade thickness. I'll let you know when I finish. I was going to keep it to myself but if you want to know you got it.

Here's some more info:
Last night I did an extensive test of foods sticking to blades on cleavers. I used potatoe because they are generally accepted and the most common culprit of blade sticking (and becuase they're 5 cents a lb.) I found that the kuro uchi finish on the Watanabe does not help food release. Some people have wondered if the mirror finish on blades stuck more that kuro uchi and I can say no. One blade did however greatly reduce sticking, the Takeda Hamono cleaver. The rough hammer marks and rough finish really helped potatoes to not stick to the blade.

However, it should be noted that this experiment was born out of the fact that I noticed cleavers with a rougher finish (Watanabe and Takeda) had a harder time doing the horizontal cuts when dicing an onion. This is caused in my opinion due to drag from the rough finish rather than blade sticking.

In my potato test I thinly sliced, diced, and frenched a dozen potatoes with the Watanabe, Takeda, and the two CCK 1102 and 1302 cleavers.

[Peter]

Andy, please excuse me, but what does it mean to "french" potatoes? Julienne?

Peter

[Andy777]

Yes I just couldn't remember the word Julienne so I used the "French" as in french fries /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Richard]

I thought the French cut is when you accidentally cut yourself and spew obscenities. Ah $#@$*^!...oops, pardon my French! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/3/happy50.gif

[Jesse]

I assume you want a thin veggie type cleaver. The next question is how much do you want to spend. For under $50 you can get the CCK that I got for Octaveman, probably the best for that range. If you want a $150-250 japanese cleaver then you will have a lot more options it just depends on the exact traits you want and how much you want to spend. Shun makes a great cleaver which can be found on ebay for a good price but it is MUCH too small in my book. Same with the budget line of Masahiros. I prefer the larger cleavers 22-24cm but I don't know what you want. If you want a more expensive cleaver pm me and we can discuss it since it would be a loooong discussion. If you want to try out a cheaper cleaver contact me and I could arrange to get you a CCK, or check out www.wokshop.com (http://www.wokshop.com) they have several btwn $10-20 you could experiment with like the one Fred bought here. (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/173/an/0/page/9#173)

Don't forget to check out my other "wearing out my welcome" chinese cleaver posts here (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/838/an/0/page/7#838) and here (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1686/an/0/page/1#1686).

Basically if you let me know what you are looking for and how much you want to spend we can find the perfect knife for you.



I am attempting to get some information about the secondary bevel (not the bevel of the actual cutting edge, which I'm told is 16 degrees) for the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver. I've been told that it's "hollow ground", which I think is incorrect, but I don't know. Could you please tell me what the geometry of the back bevel on that knife actually is.....is it just a straight bevel, and if so, about what degree is the secondary bevel at.

Thanks a lot!

[JoeC]

The shun cleaver is double edged cleaver about 15 degrees per side for a total of about 30 bevel. Shun doesn't make a hollow ground cleaver or a granton edge cleaver. They only make a straigth bevel. The only thing that makes the Shun cleaver left or right handed is the handle which is D shaped.

[Jesse]

I am attempting to get some information about the secondary bevel (not the bevel of the actual cutting edge, which I'm told is 16 degrees) for the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver. I've been told that it's "hollow ground", which I think is incorrect, but I don't know. Could you please tell me what the geometry of the back bevel on that knife actually is.....is it just a straight bevel, and if so, about what degree is the secondary bevel at.

Thanks a lot!


I'm so obviously a 'newbie'. Here's what I meant to ask:

What I'm trying to get is what the primary bevel is. I think that the information that I was given was wrong, and it's not hollow ground. I'm referring to the primary blade grind, and not the cutting edge bevel. I asked a few other people, and they kept giving me information about the cutting edge bevel. It's my understanding, which is really limited at this point, that there is a bevel (primary blade grind) leading up to the cutting edge bevel that can be of several different geometries.

So, what I'm trying to figure out is whether my knife is the Hollow Blade Double Angle Edge, or the Flat Blade Double Angle Edge. Those diagrams aren't the ones I was looking for, so they're not too clear. I know that the secondary, or cutting bevel is flat.

I apologize for using incorrect vocab/terms.


Thanks!


[Image:sharp3.gif]


Sorry, the diagram didn't work, but it just shows the different blade geometries.....

Here's the website which has the diagram:

http://gpvec.unl.edu/filesdatabase/files/feedlot/sharp1.htm

[Jesse]

I'm so obviously a 'newbie'. Here's what I meant to ask:

What I'm trying to get is what the primary bevel is. I think that the information that I was given was wrong, and it's not hollow ground. I'm referring to the primary blade grind, and not the cutting edge bevel. I asked a few other people, and they kept giving me information about the cutting edge bevel. It's my understanding, which is really limited at this point, that there is a bevel (primary blade grind) leading up to the cutting edge bevel that can be of several different geometries.

So, what I'm trying to figure out is whether my knife is the Hollow Blade Double Angle Edge, or the Flat Blade Double Angle Edge. Those diagrams aren't the ones I was looking for, so they're not too clear. I know that the secondary, or cutting bevel is flat.

I apologize for using incorrect vocab/terms.


Thanks!


[Image:sharp3.gif]


Sorry, the diagram didn't work, but it just shows the different blade geometries.....

Here's the website which has the diagram:

http://gpvec.unl.edu/filesdatabase/files/feedlot/sharp1.htm



Andy, I figured since you have the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver, that you'd be the best person to ask about the primary blade grind of that cleaver. I'd appreciate any info or ideas you have about that.


Thanks!

[JoeC]

Andy, I figured since you have the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver, that you'd be the best person to ask about the primary blade grind of that cleaver. I'd appreciate any info or ideas you have about that.


Thanks!

Let me try one more time to explain the geometry of the Shun Classic cleaver. I might add Andy sold his shun cleaver about a month or so ago and I still own one.

First the blade is 2 mm thick at the spine the full length of the blade. The blade is about 89 mm wide at the widest point. There is an even taper on both sides of the blade from the spine to the top edge of the sharpened area. So total taper from spine to blade is about 1/2 mm per side in 88mm. The sharpened beveled is at 50/50 at a total of 30 deg.

The Shun cleaver is for all practical purposes is a simple flat sided double bevel knife. The sides have no convex or concave shape to it down to the sharpened edge.

Hollow ground seems to be a generic term like natural. I have seen it used to refer to a granton edge on various brands of knives. I have also see hollow ground used to refer to concave side on a single edge traditional Japanese knife.

As for the statement about Shun and Global being belt grinder sharpened I tend to doubt it. As for having a convex edge from the factory, I also don't buy it for the Shun. Now after one sharpens it for while you might eventually come up with a convex edge.

Ok I will get out of the way now and see if Andy answers you.

[Fred]

Joe, there is no question that Shun and Global knives are sharpened on belt grinders. It is the only easy way to put a convex bevel on blades.

[JoeC]

Not a Shun I own came with convex bevels, Fred. All where purchased within the last year. Shun claims all sharpening is done on stones. I'm afraid I'll have to take their word for it based on the 10 Shuns I own. Sorry to disagree with you on this one Fred..

[Fred]

Same here. No way they make convex bevels on stones. It just simply doesn't happen, regardless of what they say.

[JoeC]

Yes but the Shun's I own don't have convex bevels. Both the Pro or Classics have flat bevels. As for the others they make I don't know. I also don't think they us a belt sander for sharpening any more than they use stones to be honest. I'm sure they sharpen by machine but probably some kind of dedicated sharpener.

[Jesse]

Yes but the Shun's I own don't have convex bevels. Both the Pro or Classics have flat bevels. As for the others they make I don't know. I also don't think they us a belt sander for sharpening any more than they use stones to be honest. I'm sure they sharpen by machine but probably some kind of dedicated sharpener.

Maybe I can help here. I spoke to two people at Shun in the warranty department, and they both told me that Shun uses a large grind-stone.....some sort of wheel.......so it looks as though Joe's guess is right.

Thanks again for answering all these questions.

[Fred]

I thought Joe was saying that the bevels are applied by hand with a stone. That's not possible. As long as it is a mechanized round stone, then that's the equivalent of a belt grinder - powered abrasive allowing the operator to turn the blade as the bevel is applied.

[esvoboda]

Here's a picture of Shinichi Watanabe next to what looks like a large grinding wheel of some sort. I recall seeing something like this in a Suisin video as well.

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/shinichi.jpg

[Larrin]

Here's a picture of Shinichi Watanabe next to what looks like a large grinding wheel of some sort. I recall seeing something like this in a Suisin video as well.

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/shinichi.jpg
Murray Carter has a revolving waterstone grinding wheel, he uses it in his video. He doesn't use it to sharpen, I don't think.