boiling bones

[VHo]

started making my first soups a couple months ago, and I must say it's now my most favorite food, even over tuna steak, or filet mignon. there's something about that broth.

been experimenting boiling bones (or yes, just under a boil) for different lengths of time. (6, 12, 24, 36 hours) was looking to make a stronger broth I could dilute and have extra for cooking, or making other soups. ie, just made my first broccoli soup. w/ a crust of bread, wow!

the chicken broth looked like coffee after a couple days boiling, and I could dilute to what looked like the right color, but there was no flavor. did I go to far?

don't restaurants have stock pots that boil bones 24/7?

also, never in my life have I heard of pork soup. yet there were pork neck bones at the grocer, and the butcher assured me they made good soup, he was right.

thanks

vho

[Hans]

I am not sure why your chicken stock didn't turn out right, but most bones gain a lot of taste from getting a good roast before going into the stockpot, also it's a good thing to add some aromatics, a Mirepoix is the classic and usually consists of 2 parts Onion, 1 part carrot and 1 part celery, different herbs can also be added for increased flavour.

I should also point out that not all stocks gain from a very long cooking time, some seafood stocks can turn out quite bitter if they boil for a longer period, which warrants a finer mirepoix.

About pork soup, I belive it's eaten quite often in Asian cuisine.

[KneeKnocks]

VHo,
Hans has certainly started you in the right direction. A few other suggestions I would add:

Simmer, don't boil a stock. And always skim the stock every 10-15 minutes the first hour of simmering; then every 30-60 minutes as it cooks.

A weak stock can usually be traced to one of two causes: too much water (or other moisture) in proportion to the stock's solid ingredients, and not enough of the main ingredient. By this last point I mean that bones alone will not give you a very savory stock--bones are used <u>in addition</u> to meat in order to add some flavor while using less meat (an expensive ingredient).

Don't over-reduce a stock--many of the flavors contained in stock are aromatic and evaporate when simmered over an extended period of time. An over-reduced stock also contains a large concentration of gelatin which will give your stock a sticky texture and feeling in the mouth.

[Fred]

I have a duck stock on the stove right now. It has been cooking for about 3 hours and it's close to being done. In addition to a complete duck (less breasts) I put onions, bay, salt and pepper. My plan is to use the stock as well as the poached bits of meat from this process to make a duck and rice soup to accompany our dinner this evening of duck breast with a fig and wine sauce. I'll have enough duck stock to freeze for later use. This stock will be used in a couple of hours so the total cooking time will be about 6 hours. I simply can't imagine cooking a stock for days.

Knee Knocks is a chef who has been making soups and stocks for years so you'll want to pay attention to his advice.

[VHo]

thanks guys. what a resource! it's like having a direct line to god, an oracle, and the burning bush.

does that mean I can buy those roasted chickens from the store, remove the meat (or most of it) and boil those bones? somehow I thought you had to start w/ a raw chicken.

was turned onto pho soup awhile ago, me and my friends are nuts about it. have you had?

vho

[KneeKnocks]

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does that mean I can buy those roasted chickens from the store, remove the meat (or most of it) and boil those bones? somehow I thought you had to start w/ a raw chicken.



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Well, I suppose you could. It would certainly be better than using no meat/raw meat. But you'd save a lot of $ and end up with a far superior product if you'd roast your own chicken along with the mirepoix (as suggested by Hans). Then you can de-glaze the roasting pan, getting all the juices cooked out from the chicken, as well as the fond (the bits of cooked stuff from the bottom of the pan). Keep/eat the chicken pieces you'd like; throw the bones, extra meat (like the neck, back meat, etc.), roasted mirepoix, and pan juices into your stockpot; add some water, bring to a simmer slowly. Let it cook (skimming it as suggested above) for a few hours (not days!). Other than skimming the stock, leave it alone--don't stir it! Strain the stock, let it cool. When cool enough to refrigerate, put it in the fridge for a few hours. The fats will rise to the surface and congeal, and you'll be able to lift this "fat cap" off the top and toss it. Now you've got a stock.

Stock not intense enough? Either put the stock into a pot and simmer it until it reduces enough to have the intensity of flavor you want, or use it to make a double-stock--that is, make another batch of stock using this stock in place of water.

Now you're cookin'!

[VHo]

wow, I see the light!!! thank you bodhisattva (spelling?)!! I bow toward Missoura.

vho

[Peter]

[ QUOTE ]
pho soup

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VHO, I don't understand, sounds Asian.

Peter

[Peter]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure why your chicken stock didn't turn out right, but most bones gain a lot of taste from getting a good roast before going into the stockpot, also it's a good thing to add some aromatics, a Mirepoix is the classic and usually consists of 2 parts Onion, 1 part carrot and 1 part celery, different herbs can also be added for increased flavour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hans this (meat instead of chicken) sounds exactly like the recipe for fond brun?

Peter

[Hans]

Yes, it is indeed the basic recipe for a brown stock, the mirepoix and bouquet garni could without a doubt be changed a little bit when making chicken stock, depending on what preferences one has tastewise.

Where I work we use celeriac (Root celery) instead of the regular variety, I'm not quite sure how common this practice is, since I'm new to this business, but I find that it works pretty well. When we make our game stock we aren't that anal about how things are, just large chunks of unpeeled onion, peel the celeriac and chunk it down, the same with carrots. A couple of sprigs of herbs, and let it simmer overnight.

When making a chicken stock one would traditionally not roast the bones, as this would darken the colour of the finished product. I do however belive that you could do this without any ill side-effects if you aren't picky about your finished stock being as light as possible in the end. A fitting bouquet garni for a chicken stock could consist of some thyme, parsley and a few bay leaves. Some peppercorns should also be added to the pot.

[RETREVR]

Some restaurants will simmer stock overnight. It is a little safer with a steam kettle, but I have done it with gas burners as well.
I keep all aplicable veggie trimming for stock.
At a certain point, further simmering is not going to help your stock. For soup, pull it off the fire, strain it and use it. If it is weak, strain it, refresh it with bones and mirepoix and simmer again. Sometimes you can reduce it a little bit after straining, but reduction is not really going to develop the flavor unless you go for the glory and reduce it substantialy, such as a demi or a glace or a jus de lie. This is not what you are after for soup anyway.
When making soups, it is posible to make them "flat" by cooking longer than needed.
Split pea soup is based on a ham hock.
If you know what green chile is....roasted pork bones help develop the flavor.
In a discussion on another site, a chef in Europe was discussing many recipes in which he uses a pork stock.
For me, chicken and veal are the most common. Beef to a lesser extent for sauces, but frequently for soups or braises.

[VHo]

Peter

yes, Pho soup is Vietmanese (spelling?). I'll go on record right now: give me a hole in the wall w/ good food any day. our favorite pho place qualifies, and a large bowl is cheap, a meal in itself, and good any time of day or night.

awhile ago a friend sent the recipe from the San Francisco food section, so now make it at home.

there are variations, but basically: a whole chicken and 2 lbs of wings makes for some kicked up broth. add fish sauce - to your likeing, and it goes over a bowl of rice noodles, chicken (or other meat), bean sprouts, large leaves of basil, lime and hot sauce.

yes, I think flat best describes that one batch.

many thanks,

still in awe,

vho

[VHo]

thanks Hans, Kneeknocks,

roasted my first chicken.

a friend was here, I told her about you all, the roasting, the mirepoix, etc, so she showed me her style - takes a large portion of the skin off the chicken, surrounded it w/ chunks of destringed celery - something else I'd never seen - carrots and lots of onion. garlic, parsley a few herbs on the chicki.

it was delish, loved those vegetables. yess, a much better product! and then boiled those bones! (I mean simmer) yet another revelation. I'm such an excitable virgin.

vho

ps: I've no roasting pan, used a rectangular pyrex and covered w foil. seemed ok to me. she seemed set on a roasting pan, am I missing something?