Deba recommendation?

[Richard]

I am considering getting a Deba for the following applications: breaking down fish, and chopping small bones such as chicken bones, pork ribs, etc.

What size or type of Deba should I consider and what do you see as the pros/cons? Western vs. Traditional? Short vs. long? (eg. lengths ranging from 105 mm to 240 mm). Particular model recommendations would also be appreciated, budget is <$150, but note that I have a strong preference for stainless steels.

[blwchef]

I'd like some input on this subject too. I've been wondering if I needed a small yodeba if I have a honesuki? I've used my honesuki for small fish before and it worked just fine.

[Oded]

Shun makes a stainless steel deba priced around $150 (depending on the size). If memory severs me right (pun intended) you like the Shun handles, Richard.
They have two models:
A 165mm long, thick blade deba and a 210mm long, thin blade deba. Both weight roughly the same (from what I remember the 165mm is slightly heavier).
The 210mm has the advantage of being a decent heavy general purpose chopper but the shorter one will be tougher and perhaps better suited to pork ribs and chicken bones. I have not been using my 210mm for boning but it might be too big to comfortably manoeuvre around small bones.
I cannot think of other stainless deba other then the Suisin Inox Honyaki. But at 42000 JPY it is well above your budget.
Both Shun and Suisin are single bevel right-handed therefore unsuitable for Brandon (Richard – I am assuming you are right-handed).
I do not like Yo-deba (just a personal preference) but unless you want to pay the left-handed premium, Yo-deba might be your worth considering. Suisin makes a very decent Yo-deba and Wafu-deba. The Yo is the longer / thinner one; the Wafu is shorter / thicker, but perhaps not as thick as the Shun. The naming used is somewhat confusing because both are ‘Yo’ i.e. Western style.
The Suisin are reasonably priced as well – I do not know the US RRP but here in the UK they were just above the Shun. I only held the knives without actually trying them. From memory, it had a very good finish level, nice heft and not horrible blade heavy.
I am sure Koki has a few more stainless Yo-deba available but I know very little or less about them.

[Octaveman]

When I recieved my blue steel Watanabe Deba and used it on the first chicken, I was cutting through the thigh/leg joint, caught some bone and chipped the edge. I didn't realize it until I was done but there were chips in several places. I couldn't beleive it was that easy to chip this knife. Shinichi told me the knife was not made to go through chicken bones due to the acute angle of the traditional single bevel. He had me send it back to regrind the bevel to be more obtuse. I have not chipped the blade again after this regrind but I've been very careful to not knick a thigh/leg. I do use it to split the breast bone and cut through the ribs down the back seperating the back from the front without any incidence.

I guess my point is that a Deba may not be what you need if you want to cut "through" bone...specially pork ribs which are harder than chicken bones. Small or thin bones like chicken ribs, breast or back is no problem. Fish also not a problem for a Deba. A Deba is not a bone "cutter" per se but can go through small fine bone and cartilage if needed such as breaking down fish. Sorry, I'm not all that familiar with other brands so I can't contribute much there.

Cheers,
Bob

[a priori]

I use a 165mm Misono Molybdenum western (double-bevel) deba for poultry and fish. For heavier jobs, I use a cleaver.

I like the Misono because it's heavy (11.5oz.) and thick(4mm). I also like the fact that it's wide (52mm at the heel), so I can get a good grip on the blade and exert some downward force, even though you never realy need to if you keep it sharp. I'm not sure how much this matters to you but the edge is extremely asymmetrical.

Koki also snuck in some MAC single-bevel debas with western handles onto JCK, that you might want to check out. They come in a lot of sizes and are in your price range.

[Richard]

Thanks for all your feedback so far. Oded, yes I like Shuns, have a bunch already, and I was considering the Shun Debas.

Octaveman, thanks for the advice. I would suspect that a really hard blue steel with an acute angle could be prone to chips on really heavy jobs (e.g. chopping bones). I was wondering if maybe a Shun with a softer, tougher VG10 steel and a more acute angle would fare better? What about something like the Tojiro Western deba discussed here (http://216.91.137.210/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=cutlery&Number=1550)? Would it be equivalent to a heavy German chef's knife? (Too bad I gave away mine away) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Say if I stick with my current cleaver for chopping bones, but it doesn't do a good job for fish (way too short and too much belly). Does anyone know whether I would chip the edge on a gyuto if I used it for chopping up and fileting the occasional fish? My gyutos have a 15 degree bevel on them, and the steel is typically VG10. Some examples would be the Shun 8/10 in chef, or a Hattori 270 mm gyuto. If I can get by with using a gyuto without damaging it, then I can avoid getting a deba for such a specialized job.

[blwchef]

You can filet fish with gyuto just fine I've done it for years, but don't chop fish bones with it. No bueno. I think a western deba is your most versitile an d best bet. The Tojiro is affordable and can be used in the same heavy work that german chef knife could but will have harder steel and sharper edges. This allows it to be good at fish butchery and poultry as well.

[louisianacook]

Yeah, Tojiro western deba should git er done, though I would suggest a more nimble length unless you plan on butchering Shamu. BTW the 25deg. edge still got sharp as a laser, should be very durable as well.
Good butchering,
Lee /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[blwchef]

I think Lee has a Tojiro, maybe he can enlighten us.

[Richard]

Mmm...Shamu...maybe I'll have Flipper as an appetizer. Dolphin carpaccio anyone? http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/evilgrin/evilgrin10.gif

[barbouni]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Lee has a Tojiro, maybe he can enlighten us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bumping this in hopes Lee will comment on the Tojiro. I am looking for a knife to be used 80% of the time preparing chickens for grilling. (Remove backs, flatten, remove shoulder bones and rib cages.) No real rough stuff. Some fish chopping too. I found a single bevel left handed (yes, another lefty) Hon Kasumi made of Hitahci white (not sure if it's wrapped in stainless). Koki said that Masahiro and Masamoto will make lefties for a 50% up charge. Can one of the single bevel afficianado's please tell me why they might prefer this construction over the western for my application? Also western fans give me your opinion. 200mm a good size?


Hon Kasumi 200mm / 8mm thick

http://www.bladegallery.com/pics/knife806.jpg

[louisianacook]

Sorry I haven't used the western deba yet, the curse of the home cook, I don't forsee many jobs that this knife can't handle, sans chopping through shin bones etc. It's thicker than a Wustof or Henckels, and we know that these chef knives can handle the abuse. I would recommend a smaller length for continous work 180-210mm. I think the single bevels will be more prone to chipping on anything but fish, regardless of how obtuse you sharpen them.

On edit, Takeda has a double bevel deba as well, that knife in his version of AS steel would be outstanding. My gyutou of his holds an edge like no other knife I have ever used, it seems like magic...

[Octaveman]

I agree with Lee on this. A single deba is prone to chipping and I chipped my Watanabe blue steel the first time I used it. Sent it back to him for regrinding and have split breast bone, gone through ribs and cut the back a time or two with a WACK!...no chips yet. A double would definately give you more strength though.

The Hon Kasumi is not stainless. Those are good knives for the price but again, it's single beveled and most likely too fragile for anything beyond fish.

My Deba is a 180 and I'm borderline on whether I should've bought the 210. And this is only because of the sweet spot of the knife (the back 2/3 of the edge) being kind of small. Shinichi only reground this sweet spot and left the front 1/3 of the knife as is. If I got the 210, this sweet spot would be longer.

Bob

[barbouni]

good info. thanks. Sounds like double bevel is right for me.

[barbouni]

I was just checking out jkc and noticed that Nenox has a western deba with a single bevel. I thought a western deba had a double bevel by definition. ??

[Fred]

I don't think there is a definition of a "Western deba." The deba is definitely a traditional pattern. There is a Japanese term for a deba with a Western style handle but I've forgotten it. Perhaps someone else remembers it. There seem to be an almost unlimited number of prefixes for the various traditional pattern names.

I wonder if the Nenox is the heavy, fish cleaning deba or the trimmer miroshi for chopping. I'll check it out.

[mr moto]

Would that be yo-deba?

[Fred]

[ QUOTE ]
Would that be yo-deba?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think that's it. Thanks.

[Octaveman]

I thought I read somewhere that...

Wa = Traditional Japanese handle on western style blade
Yo = Western handle on traditional Japanese style blade

[KneeKnocks]

Fred,
My guess is that the Nenox yodeba is closer to the Miroshi Deba than the traditional deba--just a guess, because I've never seen/used a Miroshi Deba. I can only judge by your post on the Miroshi Deba.

Here are some specs you can work with:

the 240mm Nenox gyuto has a blade which is 2mm thick at the base of the spine, is 47mm deep, and weighs 9.25 oz.

the 240mm Nenox yodeba has a blade which is 4mm thick at the base of the spine, is 55mm deep, and weighs 14.6 oz.

the 165mm Nenox yodeba has a blade which is 4mm thick at the base of the spine, is 43mm deep, and weighs 8.6 oz.

Hope this is of some help.....


Edited to add: the back side of the blade is flat; it is bevelled only on the front side of the blade....

[Oded]

It is actually simpler then that:
Wa = Japanese style
Yo = Western style

It is only natural that Wa will be used in conjunction with the normally western style gyuto and Yo with the normally traditional deba.

I for once disagree on the observation made on single bevel being more robust then double. In fact, Ocatveman's experience shoes me that all that was needed is a kobe and perhaps a somewhat obtuse one. Included angle is included angle no matter which side, or how many sides you grind it from.

As for the task under hand, I have no idea. I cannot see any major functional difference between deba and yo deba. However, Yo debas in general are longer and thinner, reminiscent of Mioroshi Deba or Ai Deba (nealry same thing but Ai is as wide as normal deba and about 6mm thick). In other words, Yo, as well as Ai and Mioroshi deba can all duplicate as a heavy chopper to an extent. A pure deba on the other hand, is a task specific that even die hard traditionalist, single bevel aficionado such as myself have hard time justifying. Simply put, I could not find a reason to have one other then for the sake of having it to complete my collection.

The choice between the double bevel Yo and the single bevel Ai and Mioroshi is down to aesthetics, handle preference, etc. One reason I prefer single bevel is that I find sharpening them easier and more precise - I have hard time getting the left side right on a double bevel knife. Obviously, with most of my sharpening is done on single bevel these days, my comfort zone naturally shifts more and more toward them anyway.

[Fred]

The Nenox, then, is a little heavier than my miroshi deba but the blade is also a little wider and that would explain the added weight. I have a 210mm traditional deba that weighs about 14 oz. so I guess, just based on the size and weight, the Nenox is apparently closer to the miroshi than the traditional deba. The fact that it has a single bevel makes calling it a deba in the first place correct in my view.

I assume you have one since you have the measurements handy. If so how do you use it and what's your judgement about its performance? Also, what did you think of the Al Mar parer?

Oded, I have to say that single bevel knives are way, way less complex to maintain. I really like dealing with them on the sharpening stones. I've had a couple that needed some serious grinding on the inside to get them properly flat but, after that, they were a breeze to sharpen. If I could just get used to the rotation they demonstrate under use, I could probably be as much an aficionado as you are. But my experience is with Western cooking and I'm still more comfortable with Western style knives. I occasionally haul out a yanagi to slice meat but Western style knives occupy most of my kitchen prep time.

[KneeKnocks]

[ QUOTE ]
The Nenox, then, is a little heavier than my miroshi deba but the blade is also a little wider and that would explain the added weight. I have a 210mm traditional deba that weighs about 14 oz. so I guess, just based on the size and weight, the Nenox is apparently closer to the miroshi than the traditional deba. The fact that it has a single bevel makes calling it a deba in the first place correct in my view.

I assume you have one since you have the measurements handy. If so how do you use it and what's your judgement about its performance? Also, what did you think of the Al Mar parer?



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have them. The 165mm I use exclusively for filleting firm-fleshed fish (I'm currently saving my pennies for the Nenox 240mm sole fillet knife for more delicate fish). For me, the 165mm yodeba works like a charm. As you know, most German manufacturers make fillet knives that are extremely flexible, with a blade depth of about 25-30mm. For me, those work fine for delicate fish, but don't quite cut it on heavy, firm-fleshed fish with relatively thick, heavy skins. The sturdier blade of the yodeba with its extra 15-20mm of depth works much better. So far, when the blade has met with bone, the bone has been the loser.

The 240mm yodeba I <u>would</u> use with larger whole fish (halibut, tuna, etc), but in this area the demand for fish is not great enough to justify buying whole fish of that size; we usually just buy loins. So most of the work I find for the 240mm yodeba is heavier work that might be too much for the gyuto (hard-skinned squashes, etc.)--sort of like having an extra-heavy duty German chef knife.

Off-topic (but since you asked), regarding the Al Mar parer: maybe I've been very lucky so far, but this is the first knife I've purchased that was flat-out dull out of the box. Not a big problem, just a delay before use until I could find time to properly sharpen it. The bigger problem for me has been the ergonomics of the handle (which, I realize, is a personal thing). I pretty much use paring knives exclusively for paring (you know, handle wrapped in the bottom joints of 4 fingers with the blade facing the thumb), and for me the handle is just too bulky (fat?) to fit comfortably in that finger-curl. I much prefer the sleeker handle of the MAC. I may try sanding/rounding the upper and lower edges of the scales to see if it helps. So, to this point, I haven't actually used it enough to make a judgement about its performance.....

[Fred]

Interesting. I've never bought a parer that was sharp out of the box, including the Mac. The reason, I think, is that the narrower blade puts the factory sharpener's fingers too close to the belt sander for comfort causing them naturally to make a more obtuse angle. Just a guess.

I haven't really started testing the Mac and won't start until after the next sharpening session. Same with the Al Mar. Dull. I would have thought the Kasumi you like so much would have a thicker handle but I guess not. I don't have one in stock at the moment to see how it feels to me. I'll order a couple with the next Sointu order.

Thanks for the comments on the Yo deba. It sounds like a useful part of your knife collection. Whole fish aren't even available here for consumers. I can only buy filets. I can order in whole fish but just don't do it.

All your comments are right on topic, of course. They all deal with kitchen cutlery and that's what this forum is about. Good cooking.

[barbouni]

This is all good info so far. I just ordered the Misono 165mm double bevel for starters. I think this will do the job for my chicken work. I assume this will be a good knife for butcering lobsters as well. Thanks for everything.

Larry

[KneeKnocks]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have thought the Kasumi you like so much would have a thicker handle but I guess not.





[/ QUOTE ]

You may be correct about the Kasumi handle, Fred. At the least, it may have the same circumference. In such a case, the crucial difference in the ergonomics (for me, at least) is that the Al Mar handle is rectangular in cross-section, whereas the Kasumi is round. Makes a big difference in the feel of the handle when it's tucked inside that finger-curl. That's why I'm hoping that rounding the handle edges on the Al Mar will clear up my problem....

[KneeKnocks]

[ QUOTE ]
I just ordered the Misono 165mm double bevel for starters. I think this will do the job for my chicken work. I assume this will be a good knife for butcering lobsters as well.



[/ QUOTE ]

Larry,

I think you'll like the way the yodeba handles lobsters. At least, I've had great success using the yodeba for that purpose.

You may, like many others, also find the 165mm yodeba good for fabricating chickens. I prefer to use a honesuki for chicken work. The radical taper of the blade makes chicken multi-tasking a lot easier: the heel has plenty of width and depth for splitting breast bones or detaching the backbone, while the much-narrower tip makes it easier to negotiate the straits between joints (unlike the broader tip of the yodeba). However, YMMV......

[barbouni]

Thanks Knee.
I have been eyeing the Honesuki. I wasn't sure about the width of the blade; glad to know it's got some substance. Looks like a nice knife with many uses up and down the blade. That's what I loved about my German and French chef's knives; versatility.
I kind of miss that.

LK

[barbouni]

Well, I just received my Misono Moly Deba from Koki. I ordered it Thursday and it got here Monday morning. Amazing.
It's quite heavy for a 165mm knife. Quite a bit of it seems to be in the handle as it's balanced a bit handle heavy. The blade looks thick enough to handle they type of work I am intending, though I cannot find my micrometer to give precise measurements. Though it's a double bevel, there is a very descernable front/back profile to the edge, which is the most asymmetrical of all my knives so far. I doubt this will be noticeable to my left handed use. The heel of the balde seems to be a bit duller than the center and tip portions, which makes some sense to me if it's intentional. It's reasonable sharp with a nice mirror finished edge.

Thanks for all the help.

Larry

[barbouni]

Picture attached.
http://www.lametroleague.com/images/568_Deba.jpg