Sharpening Support

[designdog]

I received my ebay Ichimonji-Kichikuni knives yesterday - really got them to improve my sharpening techniques more than anything else. And I see that I need some help:

1. the spines of these knives are very sharp. What is the best way to round them off?

2. I am done with my Shapton Pro 5K. Done with it. No matter how I try to flatten the thing, after a half dozen or so strokes I get back to this "riding the rails" sensation.

I am thinking of 1K, 2K, 4K and 8K glasstones to compliment my Naniwa 10K, Bester 700, and DMC XX 220. Maybe I will just try the 4K first.

Help!:eek:

-ddog

[jonowee]

A quick one... sandpaper will easily take care of sharp spines or choils.

But do miss being able to peel off onion skins with the knives' spines, instead of trying with my non-existent fingernails.

[thombrogan]

A hobby belt sander with a 1" x 30" 600 grit silicon carbide grit belt works well, too.

If you sharpen symmetrically, try setting a bevel by grinding almost to the edge with your Bester 700, setting a slightly steeper microbevel with your Shapton Pro 2000, and finish another slightly steeper microbevel with your Naniwa 10K. You may not spend as much money as you would buying all of those awesome Glasstones, but you'll get a sharp, durable edge very quickly.

[DocNightfall]

Your Shapton 5k problem is quite unusual. Do you have the Japanese or the American version? The stone may be glazing because you aren't using enough water.

[watercrawl]

2. I am done with my Shapton Pro 5K. Done with it. No matter how I try to flatten the thing, after a half dozen or so strokes I get back to this "riding the rails" sensation.

Throw it in the trash, it's a piece of junk. By trash, of course, I mean the USPS mail service trash addressed to Omaha, NE. :eek:

I'm very puzzled about why you're having so much trouble with it. Sorry, I have no idea's without being with the stone. :(

I really do like the GlassStones, you'll be happy with them if you go that route.

[sudsy9977]

dd....one very important thing i learned from dave in regards to sharpening was about stones....i too had a similar riding the rails problem.....and i did what dave told me to do....i softened the dges of the stone....so i don't have high spots.....when i finally saw him in person and saw his stones i quickly realized i hadn't understood....his stones are rounded on the edges and corners....i mean rounded...i was using my dmt plate to flatten and i kind of took off the cornrs but still had an angle......what you have to do is round them completely....try it it works great....if not get rid of it by sending t to omaha....wherever the heck that is!.....ryan

[Q_Egg]

Pro 5K issues do seem a bit anomalous. Mine (from JWW) is guaranteed and perhaps yours is as well. Sounds as though the edges are harder than the center?? I would see if an exchange is a possiblity. No such problems here.

Why wouldn't a few passes (longitudinal), working up through your stones, do a fine job with the sharp spines?

Tom B

[Zeasor]

...1. the spines of these knives are very sharp. What is the best way to round them off?

Clamp the blade in a vise and use a strip of sandpaper on the spine like you were buffing a shoe. This makes short work of rounding the corners of the spine.

[DocNightfall]

You may be forgetting to bevel the edges of the stone after flattening, or you may be applying too much pressure on the blade, causing it to flex over edges of the stone. The 5k feels very smooth in use. It doesn't feel like it's doing much, although the amount of black swarf on the stone tells a different story. It's very tempting to try to "speed things along" by pressing harder, but that just doesn't help.

The Shapton Pro 5k is actually my honing stone of choice. I have tried a couple of the Glass Stones and while they offer some nifty features such as the all-white abrasive that gives better visual feedback and the glass backing that allows you to keep using the stone until it is all gone, I don't consider the GS series abrasive to be an upgrade over the Professional series. The pro stones last longer, for sure. kcma and his kitchen wore out a GS 1k in three or so months. I've never heard of anyone wearing out a Shapton pro 1k.

[Q_Egg]

You may be forgetting to bevel the edges of the stone after flattening, or you may be applying too much pressure on the blade, causing it to flex over edges of the stone. The 5k feels very smooth in use. It doesn't feel like it's doing much, although the amount of black swarf on the stone tells a different story. It's very tempting to try to "speed things along" by pressing harder, but that just doesn't help.

The Shapton Pro 5k is actually my honing stone of choice. I have tried a couple of the Glass Stones and while they offer some nifty features such as the all-white abrasive that gives better visual feedback and the glass backing that allows you to keep using the stone until it is all gone, I don't consider the GS series abrasive to be an upgrade over the Professional series. The pro stones last longer, for sure. kcma and his kitchen wore out a GS 1k in three or so months. I've never heard of anyone wearing out a Shapton pro 1k.
-----------------------------
Sure a 'feel good' post for me !! I like the consistency I get using four Shap Pros and 8K should be fine enough for anything I need to do. I also was feeling a tendency to apply more pressure and will now slow down, lighten up, and enjoy the process. :)

Tom B

[designdog]

Here's an interesting thing about the Shaptons i have. I bought them through a web search, winding up with Amazon. They actually came from Japan Woodworker:


1 of: #1000 Grit Ceramic (Orange) Professional Series Water Stone - Shapton [Misc.]
Sold by: Japan Woodworker Catalog (seller profile) $48.75


1 of: #5000 Grit Ceramic (Wine) Professional Series Water Stone - Shapton [Misc.]
Sold by: Japan Woodworker Catalog (seller profile) $73.75


Yesterday when I checked out the Japan Woodworker catalog, the Shapton Pros were different - they had their own base, and they were more expensive. (Mine came in little plastic cases.)

So I can't tell you what kind of Shaptons I actually have. I have tried to round the edges on the 5K and, as I mentioned, after about six strokes I get the dishing again...

-ddog

[DocNightfall]

This is the Japanese-version Shapton Professional stone sold at JWW:
http://japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/thumbs/01.020.5000.jpg

There are other lower-priced stones also made by Shapton, such as the M5:
http://japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/thumbs/01.024.5000.jpg

The M15:
http://japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/thumbs/01.030.5000.jpg

And the M24:
http://japanwoodworker.com/assets/images/product/JapanWoodworker/thumbs/01.027.5000.jpg

All the stones shown here are 5000 grit.

[ksskss]

1. the spines of these knives are very sharp. What is the best way to round them off?

Rounding ths spines with sandpaper works fine as already described. If you put it in a vice while doing this, make sure the jaws are covered somehow so you don't scratch the blade in the process.

2. I am done with my Shapton Pro 5K. Done with it. No matter how I try to flatten the thing, after a half dozen or so strokes I get back to this "riding the rails" sensation.

The pro stones flex a bit under load. You can easily see this if a stone needs some flattening and you put it on a granite regerence block. press on it and you will see the amount of daylight change between the stone and the plate.

So when you flatten the stone if you press hard and then release you will have a problem that can drive you nuts Just flatten with moderate force and things will go well.

If you are riding the rails, bevel the edges of the stone and even round it a bit with a DMT plate. This is common to all stones not just 5k Pros.

Also make sure the stone is well supported in the middle when using a stoneholder.

Another issue is technique. If you are a slight bit off flush with the stone, you hit rails. Do slow gentle strokes and loof at the metal being removed as well. You will see where you are hitting. Also try doing the whole blade in single strokes over the ful length of the stone, which distributes wear more evenly than holding the blade at an angle and preferentially wearing the middle of the stone.

Some combination of these techniques should help. The 5k Pro gives very little feedback, feeling like driving on ice with bald tires (especially for a 5k stone) so it's easy to want to press hard to compensate for this weak feeedback. I much prefer my 4k GS. with strong feedback, but rarely use my 6k GS and now rarely use my Pro stones, but the 1k and 2k pros are especially good stones nontheless.

---
Ken

[DwarvenChef]

I seem to still have a strong pull for the Pro stones... this thread is killing me... :p

If you have Pro stones and flex is an issue (as it seems) would you be able to use a stiff backer. Like the GS glass plate, could you texture one side (or both) of a piece of glass or an unpollished piece of granit? By placing a rag between them you would have good traction and no flex....

Yup Pro stones are still calling me... but $$ and space will send me down the GS path for the moment.

[Q_Egg]

This stone 'flex' thing is not trivial and I'm already taking steps to mitigate the effects (both sharpening and flattening). I made a (2) 2"x4" copy of your thick wood block, but am now going to fasten a thick Corian plate to the top of the block as a base for whichever stone I am using. This may be an overkill, but I feel better about it and the materials are already around.

You posted ... "Also try doing the whole blade in single strokes over the full length of the stone, which distributes wear more evenly than holding the blade at an angle and preferentially wearing the middle of the stone." I think I understand your meaning, but a clarification will help. Are you advising a stroke 'mimicking' the Gizmo (tip to heel while moving near to far).... OR .... Dave's instruction .... full. multiple passes from near to far?

Tom B

[DocNightfall]

DC, all non-sintered stones (and I suppose even sintered ones) will flex under pressure. Thicker stones flex less than the thinner ones, but they all flex. I don't think the flex is the issue here.

My take on this matter is: If a pro 5k could give you THAT much trouble, then you are probably using it wrong and also probably using all your other stones improperly as well. The problem is just a lot more noticeable on that particular stone.

[ksskss]

Doc, I agree. It may just be the 'canary in the mine'.

Tom we are blending some concepts here in error. The Gizmo can use full sweeping strokes tip to heel and back OR short little strokes, each the width of the stone or any other style of stroke you want to use. The stroke style has nothing to do with the Gizmo. The stroke style I demonstrate in the video uses full sweeps, which I personally prefer for several reasons, whether or not I'm using a Gizmo, panavice or traditional hand sharpening as this way I'm not patching individual areas, but rather keeping the whole plane intact as a single surface. You could say this is a stylistic difference and ultimately it's what works for you. For some problem shapes, I will clamp a knife to the gizmo and do it in two sections, above and below the clamp, blending the two sections under magnification. I also recently found this single sweep technique helped reduce or minimize burr formation (desirable) on a Yoshikane powdered steel knife which is particularly prone to forming difficult burrs that when removed caused chipping of the edge (at 7 degrees).

---
Ken

[designdog]

Based on my take here I am fairly certain I got the Japanese Shapton Pros, although I can't understand why the "M" series costs more, unless the M stands for "Mounted."

Normally I sharpen on a big butcher block, with a wet dishrag underneath. I will try using the Shapton cases next. Has anyone tried their new $79, 7lb holder?

And yes, my technique needs much work. But the lack of feedback from the 5K isn't helping. I am going to flatten that thing into the 4th dimension tomorrow, and round the edges so much it's going to look like a baseball bat! Then we'll see.

Thanks for the feedback!

-ddog

[ksskss]

EXCLUDING the M series from the conversation for the moment, there are two versions of the Pro stones - those from JWW and those from everyone else in the USA. JWW imports them from Japan directly and they are cheaper. The USA distributors of Shapton Pro says that their formulation is different to account for climate differences between Japan and the US - this makes no sense to me. I also think, for the purpose of this discussion it is irrelevant. The M series stones, of varying thicknesses are a completely different formulation and suppossedly have a lower % abrasive content than the pro series although I haven't used one. They have a wood base, the pros have no base and the GlassStones have gone back to incorporating a base, so my guess is (IMO) that the GS glass base eliminates the flex issue and also allows the full width of the stone to be used up. The GS also cuts more aggressively than the pros with more feedback and begins to produce a mirror finish at 500 grit.

---
Ken

[kcma]

M5 has only 5mm of actual ceramic stone, M15 has 15, and M24 has 24. iirc.

[designdog]

OK - I am ready to try some Glasstones. What is the best place to get them? Do I need to buy a base/stone holder?

As they are inexpensive, I am thinking 1, 2, 4, 8k...

-ddog

[joecil]

Here http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm and they may still have free shipping.

[thombrogan]

Right now, they're only at Craftsman Studios as Joe said and Shaptonstones.com.

[ksskss]

Either source

---
Ken

[designdog]

Thanks. Also found them here: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-Ceramic-Water-Stones-C84.aspx

Got the 1 and 4k to try, plus the stone holder, which I've been wanting anyway. Free shipping.

-ddog

[ksskss]

Add the 2k. Your 4k and you will last longer.

---
Ken

[Q_Egg]

Add the 2k. Your 4k and you will last longer.
---
Ken
---------------------------
.......... makes me feel good! I was feeling dumb about buying both Pro1K and 2K. :)

Tom B

[joecil]

$75 for a stone holder now that I would balk on for sure. Consider a standard type stone holder which run about $20.

[Q_Egg]

Thanks. Also found them here: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-Ceramic-Water-Stones-C84.aspx

Got the 1 and 4k to try, plus the stone holder, which I've been wanting anyway. Free shipping.

-ddog
-------------------------------
Good source. John is a very patient and helpful guy ..... has passed on some helpful ideas. Hope these resolve your issues!

Tom B

[thombrogan]

makes me feel good! I was feeling dumb about buying both Pro1K and 2K.

The jump from 1K to 2K is lot further than 2K to 8K.

[Q_Egg]

$75 for a stone holder now that I would balk on for sure. Consider a standard type stone holder which run about $20.
-----------------------
Well ........ yes, but this one sure looks sturdy! Can't tell you how much time I spent trying to make a thicker and heavier one that 'works'. :p

Tom B

[Q_Egg]

The jump from 1K to 2K is lot further than 2K to 8K.
--------------------------
............ I still feel good !! (rub 'em all together anyway). :D

Tom B

[designdog]

OK!OK! Added a 2k to my order. So its 1,2,4k on the Glasstones, and, if needed, there is my Naniwa 10k...

Thats it for now!

-ddog

PS So what - I like the stone holder. Its a Zen thing...

[thombrogan]

What does Zen have to do with an $80 stone holder that a $10 stone holder and $2 worth of "bumpers" don't do cheaper?

[designdog]

Cheaper is not always better, grasshopper.

-ddog

[thombrogan]

Okay, what does the $80 holder do better than my $10 holder now that the glass backings on my Shaptons have rubber footies?

[Octaveman]

What $10 holder do you have?

[thombrogan]

This (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1530) one. I can see where the $80 one would be better for a Shapton Pro waterstone, but not a Glasstone.

[Octaveman]

Isn't there an issue with these in that the center piece does not support the stone? I've been told that the the two end supports are higher than the center support so there's no support in the middle where the majority of the work is done.

[joecil]

I have 2 of those and don't see the need for even feet on the glass stones. Mine hold just a hair higher than the glass base. Oh yes and I've had no problem with the center piece not supporting the stone. The only time I've seen it is with my Ice Bear stones if tightened down to hard in the holder they tend to warp up allowing the center foot to slide a bit. Hasn't happened with the GS, Pink Brick, Bester or even the 4K Ice Bear.

[thombrogan]

Isn't there an issue with these in that the center piece does not support the stone? I've been told that the the two end supports are higher than the center support so there's no support in the middle where the majority of the work is done.

That's an issue with some unsupported stones, but not for stones with a 1/4" thick slab of glass and the issue for unsupported stones is reduced if the person doesn't use brute force as a sharpening technique.

[Zeasor]

Okay, what does the $80 holder do better than my $10 holder now that the glass backings on my Shaptons have rubber footies?

It has patent leather footies. :D

[designdog]

Being as tall as it is, it will set the optimum sharpening angle for my shoulder, elbow and wrist rotation.

Being as heavy as it is, it allow me to readily discern the subtle nuances of the blade as it passes over the stone.

Being as stylish as it is, it will fit in with my kitchen decor and allow me to sharpen my knives outside of the closet.

Being as expensive as it is, it will make me concentrate more.

Being the fact that I already ordered it, it will be here in three days.

-ddog

[Q_Egg]

It has patent leather footies. :D

..... and weighs 7 lbs !! I like it !!! (jealous too!) :cool:

Tom B

[Octaveman]

Being the fact that I already ordered it, it will be here in three days.

-ddog
Funny

[Octaveman]

..... and weighs 7 lbs !! I like it !!! (jealous too!) :cool:

Tom B

Yeh, no kidding. I've using the plastic boxes the shaptons came with and they slide all over the place. Looking for something that will not move. This might be the best choice. Anxiously awaiting DD's review on thursday.

[DocNightfall]

Anyone ever heard of a damp rag? Seriously, they work.

[Octaveman]

I have and they move too. I don't use so light of a touch when I sharpen. It takes forever that way so pressure is applied and with the forward movement on top of a damp rag which is on top of a slick counter...it moves.

[Q_Egg]

Yeh, no kidding. I've using the plastic boxes the shaptons came with and they slide all over the place. Looking for something that will not move. This might be the best choice. Anxiously awaiting DD's review on thursday.
------------------------------------
Me too. Dave advised me not to use the Pro boxes (after I mentioned it) and that started me through several iterations of solid wood blocks.
My final version is going to be a scrap of composite (ChoiceDek, Trex) 4"x4" post (won't absorb moisture_much) with a Corian scrap (8.5" x 3.5") srewed on top. Heavy, sturdy, cheap (stuff is already around). It will go in Panavise 350, screwed to Corian baseplate, screwed to custom filler board (over sink). Pics soon I hope.

If labor gets counted, ddog's holder will be a bargain!

Tom B

[thombrogan]

Thanks, design dog and Zeasor!

[Zeasor]

I have and they move too. I don't use so light of a touch when I sharpen. It takes forever that way so pressure is applied and with the forward movement on top of a damp rag which is on top of a slick counter...it moves.

Try the rubbery/spongy non-slip shelf liner. It's great for keeping all manner of things from slidding around. I bought a roll (18"x72") for a few bucks at Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

[joecil]

That is what I also use Zeasor and it is pretty cheap at WalMart. I also got a roll that is 18" x 72" that I use to keep things from sliding off my counter tops.

[designdog]

It will honor me greatly to post my humble observations of this new stone holder.

My previous, and ill-starred, attempts at sharpening utilized a damp Williams-Sonoma 15" square claret striped soft, sturdy cotton dish towel, highly absorbent but resistant to shrinking and fading, woven in Turkey, the source of some of the world’s finest toweling, and finished with a hanging loop. This in turn was placed on top of a John Boos 18 x 24 x 2.25 cutting board, manufactured from the finest Northern white species of hard rock maple, unfortunately not end grain as some of my other boards. The towel was moistened with water from a Moen Waterhill brass faucet in a black composite stone sink. Sharpening techniques were fully in accordance with Best Manufacturing Practices, as amended in the Sakai-New York provenance of August, 2005, for left-handed chef-persons of aged proportions and sagging demeanor.

-ddog

[joecil]

You left out the more money than most to spend. The $75 could of also got you the Glass stone 500x or the Naniwa 10K and a regular stone holder with money left over. Never mind the Hand America stuff it would buy. ;)

[designdog]

Joe:

Er, do you think I need a 500k Glassstone...?:rolleyes:

-ddog

[Zeasor]

:eek:
It will honor me greatly to post my humble observations of this new stone holder.

My previous, and ill-starred, attempts at sharpening utilized a damp Williams-Sonoma 15" square claret striped soft, sturdy cotton dish towel, highly absorbent but resistant to shrinking and fading, woven in Turkey, the source of some of the world’s finest toweling, and finished with a hanging loop. This in turn was placed on top of a John Boos 18 x 24 x 2.25 cutting board, manufactured from the finest Northern white species of hard rock maple, unfortunately not end grain as some of my other boards. The towel was moistened with water from a Moen Waterhill brass faucet in a black composite stone sink. Sharpening techniques were fully in accordance with Best Manufacturing Practices, as amended in the Sakai-New York provenance of August, 2005, for left-handed chef-persons of aged proportions and sagging demeanor.

-ddog


Tisk, Tisk. You go to all that trouble and then you cheap-out with no-name municipal water instead of a quality bottled agua. Some folks ain't got no class. (L:DL) ---Z

[Q_Egg]

I prefer the 220K myself ......... at that price !!

Tom B

[joecil]

Joe:

Er, do you think I need a 500k Glassstone...?:rolleyes:

-ddog


Ah that is a 500x not 500K a bit of difference there guy. :rolleyes:

[designdog]

:eek:


Tisk, Tisk. You go to all that trouble and then you cheap-out with no-name municipal water instead of a quality bottled agua. Some folks ain't got no class. (L:DL) ---Z

Yeah. And you don't know how hard I tried getting that Evian into the kitchen faucet before I gave up!

-ddog

[designdog]

Ah that is a 500x not 500K a bit of difference there guy. :rolleyes:

No WONDER I can't seem to sharpen anything!!!:eek:

[ksskss]

Here's the setup I use over the snk and some things I have held with it. The block elevates stuff, but the adjustable clamps on the board will hold things down real well if I'm using a bit more force.

---
Ken
http://www.kenss.com/knives/sinkstoneholder/naniwa12k.jpg
http://www.kenss.com/knives/sinkstoneholder/woodblock.jpg
http://www.kenss.com/knives/sinkstoneholder/postitglass.jpg
http://www.kenss.com/knives/sinkstoneholder/dmt11xc.jpg
http://www.kenss.com/knives/sinkstoneholder/longholder1.jpg