Is It Too Late For Me?

[Erik Kolm]

Hey Guys;

As some of you know, I've worked as a butcher for the past couple of years. I'm really getting pretty tired of it. Mainly because of management issues, but also just because of the work.

It isn't very fun to work in those refrigerated rooms all day! Because of the cold, a common complaint among the older guys is that they can't feel their fingertips anymore. This is starting to happen to me. Sometimes my hands are so cold...I never thought they could be that cold!

Plus, there just isn't the PRIDE in the work anymore. Everything comes to us in a box and we just trim, cut and clean it up. Believe me, there are very few guys out there who could point at a hanging beef and tell you "This is where roasts come from" "This is where steaks come from" etc.

Needless to say, the butchers/meat cutters of today just aren't making as much money as in the past. Is there even still a Journeyman butcher out there anymore? Really a dying breed.

Here in my area, we have two colleges that have excellent culinary programs. I've been thinking of going.

But the downfall in this profession as I see it is working every weekend and holiday. (Which I do now.) I haven't researched earning potential yet.

But working as a chef just has to be better than as a butcher! It sucks to be wet and cold all day long, while holding onto something cold and wet and trying to work as fast as possible without cutting myself.


The alternative for me I guess is to go back to the factory/warehouse jobs. I spent 15 years doing that. It's O.K. I can't really explain it, but I just like working in food service better. My days are 10-12 hours long, so you have to enjoy some aspects of the job to hang with it....

Maybe I'm starting to go through a mid-life crisis. I'll be 40 in a couple of months and it's like...Christ...I should have my S*** together by now! So maybe it's too late for me to go back to school. Being 40 and poor just isn't as funny as being 20 and poor!

Anyway, I have some big decisions to make here shortly. I guess it helps to have someplace to write out my thoughts, and rant a bit!

[thombrogan]

It's a very big step to make. Check here, at knifeforums, and eGullett among the pros and see if there's a specialty that'll feed your family and your creativity.

Good luck, Erik!

[Arturo]

Erik, Of course you're not too old. I was in my 30's when I switched and went to culinary school. You HAVE BEEN in a related career, you it's not like you'd be starting off from scratch.

I think there are a lot of chef's who would like to have someone with your skills. My suggestion would be to work in a high end restaurant that does a lot of their own butchery/charcuterie in house. Kind of leaveraging your butchery skills for line skills.

Some high end hotels (ie. 4 seasons, ritz carlton, boutique hotels) do there own butchery in house as well. Once again you can use your skills to get a foot in the door.

You just have to remain agressive, always volunteering to help out on other stations.

Another option is to start staging in places around town. (stage is restaurant speak for working for free). Just to see how you like it. Go in the back door and ask to speak to the chef and introduce yourself and explain your situation. Just be real picky about where you go and once you're in you'll start hearing talk about who's good in town.

Good luck,
Arturo




Hey Guys;

As some of you know, I've worked as a butcher for the past couple of years. I'm really getting pretty tired of it. Mainly because of management issues, but also just because of the work.

It isn't very fun to work in those refrigerated rooms all day! Because of the cold, a common complaint among the older guys is that they can't feel their fingertips anymore. This is starting to happen to me. Sometimes my hands are so cold...I never thought they could be that cold!

Plus, there just isn't the PRIDE in the work anymore. Everything comes to us in a box and we just trim, cut and clean it up. Believe me, there are very few guys out there who could point at a hanging beef and tell you "This is where roasts come from" "This is where steaks come from" etc.

Needless to say, the butchers/meat cutters of today just aren't making as much money as in the past. Is there even still a Journeyman butcher out there anymore? Really a dying breed.

Here in my area, we have two colleges that have excellent culinary programs. I've been thinking of going.

But the downfall in this profession as I see it is working every weekend and holiday. (Which I do now.) I haven't researched earning potential yet.

But working as a chef just has to be better than as a butcher! It sucks to be wet and cold all day long, while holding onto something cold and wet and trying to work as fast as possible without cutting myself.


The alternative for me I guess is to go back to the factory/warehouse jobs. I spent 15 years doing that. It's O.K. I can't really explain it, but I just like working in food service better. My days are 10-12 hours long, so you have to enjoy some aspects of the job to hang with it....

Maybe I'm starting to go through a mid-life crisis. I'll be 40 in a couple of months and it's like...Christ...I should have my S*** together by now! So maybe it's too late for me to go back to school. Being 40 and poor just isn't as funny as being 20 and poor!

Anyway, I have some big decisions to make here shortly. I guess it helps to have someplace to write out my thoughts, and rant a bit!

[iilcreep]

dont waste your money or time on culinary school. line cooks dont make any more than butchers do, some seasoned butchers actually make more and culinary schools sure as hell dont make chefs. imo line cooks have to work harder and is alot more stressful than butchering, at least in a fine dining capacity.

[Arturo]

That is absolutly correct. You will never learn more faster than in fine dining. They don't pay well, but in the long run neither does learning poor technique. Learn as much as you can in 4 or 5 years, then open up a place that leaverages your butchery skills. Places that do local fish/game/veg are more and more popular. Keep the preparations simple, use what you know.

And it wouldn't hurt to get culinary textbook and or Larrouse Gastronomie, in case people use terms/techniques you don't understand.

Arturo

[VHo]

I feel you. my work is physical. doing it at 50 not like it was at 30.

I so feel for the middle class in this country. Seems harder and harder to make a living.

You have skills, hope you can find a more rewarding / comfortable means to make a living.

(I could show you how to treat your forearms. you've over used those muscles many years, proper reconditioning would improve circulation to your cold fingers.)

[Fred]

Is your market large enough to support a custom butcher shop?

[Erik Kolm]

Thom, thanks for leading me over here. And thanks for the kind works of encouragement. I love this forum! Arturo, I see that you're in L.A. Have you ever heard of a place called "Nick & Stef's"? It's supposed to be a steakhouse that deals in higher end, dry aged strips. That would be right up my alley. (But of course right now I can't afford to eat there! Ha! Ha!) illcreep, that's what I'm afraid of; that a jump from butcher to line cook would be a lateral move at best. I'll think hard about your advice on culinary school!

VHo: I'm thankful my wife's a Chiropractor! She bought me one of those hand tubs that uses hot wax. It's been a big help. You're right though. It sounds like we've both had demanding working careers. Not only in this job for me, but the factory/warehouse I used to work in. That was no day at the beach either. Lot's of repetitive motion. I've heard before that working on your forearms helps with hand strength.

[Erik Kolm]

Hi Fred. Yes I think it would be. It's funny that you ask that because the store manager and I have become good friends. We often talk about how nice it would be to own our own shop and be able to run things the way we want to.

Some people can remember neighborhoods, and a time when there was a tavern and a butcher shop on every corner. Those days have long gone, but the butcher shops that have been able to survive have become something of a gold mine. I don't know if that'll be the trend, say, 20-40 years from now, because large, centralized operations like Costco and Wal-Mart are coming down hard on us.

In my first post I mentioned management issues that I seem to be having. It's my strong feeling that it's the quality of the product that'll keep the small shops open. Not the huge variety of crap that they love to stuff the case with.

[VHo]

too funny. have your wife check out my website: labackandbody.com
sure to blow her mind.

with all due respect to hot wax, there's a better way to treat muscles - some landmark cases discussed on website. ie., les mccann

surprising how many angelino's we have here.

[Erik Kolm]

I'll pass along your website to my wife, Dr. Trenta. Here's her website: www.drschwanger.com

[kcma]

if you're in la. shoot me a pm. you can trail a day to see what it's like. like arturo said. dont expect money right away. he's put in countless hours of free labor to learn the craft. and so have i.

it's also not true that there is no money. it's there. most never sees it because they're simply not strong enough to grow to the point where they'd make some money. it's both a sprint and a marathon. alot of shouting and yelling and different abuses. it's NOT a job where you clock in clock out and go home. there are always more work than you can possibly do. and you'll be expected to finish all your work on time.

ppl in the dining room could care less how hard your job is. if that sounds like a poopy job. it is. chefs do what they do because they love working in the kitchen. if that is not what you LOVE... don't jump into it.

i'm not trying to be negative. it's just the reality. arturo, heyhung, brandon, and anyone else who works in a full service restaurant would tell youi the same thing ( culinary school on the other hand wont).

best thing to do is spend a day trailing to see for yourself. either with me or someone else. i'd be more than happy to bring you into any kitchen i have connection with too.

if you really think this is what you want to do. i wish you best of luck :) (and i can prolly get you in the door too if things work out).

[kcma]

one of my old chef said it best. this is not a job or carer. it's a lifestyle you marry into.

[DwarvenChef]

After going through cuilinary school in my early 40's I can tell you... DON"T ... These guys are stearing you straight. The degree (if your lucky) will get you the interview (or get you tossed out...) It's all about WHAT you know, play your skills and work your way up the ladder. My student loans will not get payed off for almost 30 years and will have doubled in that time... you just don't make hard cash working up that ladder...

[Erik Kolm]

It’s becoming clear to me how much my current job as a butcher mirrors what you guys do as Chefs in restaurants. Do I have the refined stills that you do? NO. But I certainly know what long days are, and not being able to leave until the job’s done. I don’t have to deal with a busy dining room, but I do have to deal with impatient customers who are sometimes lined up two, three and four deep at the counter. (I’ve come to not like Holidays very much)

I do love this job though -- it’s a little hard to explain -- Not the little day-to-day crap that you have to put up with, but it’s great for me to go to a job where even after almost two years, I learn something new just about every day. Other jobs I’ve had in the factory you pretty much master in less than a week, and are boring as hell.

So that’s the decision that I’ll have to make here shortly. The day’s of the multitasking, lone butcher who knows how to completely break down and process an animal are just about gone. My current job isn’t going to teach me that. Like I said, everything comes in boxes. Would a switch to the kitchen be a better fit and a better career move for me?

I can’t thank you all enough for your staging offers! I really wish I did live in LA. You are the kind of guys that I’d like to have as friends in real life!

I’m really disappointed about the stories about school though! Of course my wife’s buried in school loans, so I hear all of her stories. I went to a truck driving program for a CDL and wasted my time. Of course they didn’t tell you how tough life on the road would be either. I was really hoping Culinary School would be different!

[kcma]

school does help. it in itself isnt bad. the problem is the way school accepts EVERYONE. some of these kids need to be told, no! you'll not make it! chefs really just want ppl who work hard, and are self-motivated. i dont care if you went to school or not.

[Arturo]

Culinary school isn't bad. You just don't have time to mess around. Ideally youd like to relavant work experience and go to a good school. I just think you can jump the system my studying on your own and leaveraging your work experience to get ahead.

Another option for you is to look to see if the ACF has an apprenticeship program in your area. Those are often very good and you more one on one attention from someone who can be a mentor.

http://www.acfchefs.org/Content/NavigationMenu2/Careers/Apprentice/Locations/default.htm

You can also try talking to someone at your local ACF chapter and seeing what they think.

http://www.acfchefs.org/Content/presidents_portal/ACFChapter.cfm?ChapterChoice=OH051

You'll find though most chefs are gruff and crusty on the outside they are more than willing to help someone who has talent and is willing to work hard.

Arturo

PS. Opening up a high end butcher shop is not a bad idea. Even if you go this route I would still recommend talking to as many chefs as possible. Some of them could become customers if you are willing to do custom work.

[DwarvenChef]

I'm glad I went because I had next to no knowledge on cooking, it got me up to speed so I could function in a pro kitchen. So in that respect school was very good to me. But now every time I have to fuss with the studen loan Co. I'm pissed and sick for a few days. Being a middle class caucasion (with a job) I was out of luck for grants and such, so I have to pay the full bill for school, even though I'm way below the poverty line... Thats why I let people know school may not be good for ya.

[Arturo]

Many Community Colleges have good programs that are a lot less $$$

[heyhung]

I also have to add that before cul. school, I didn't even know what places to stage at (this was also the dark ages of "pre-FF" - I refuse to use "BFF" since the E! channel has a monopoly on that one) and really how to use all the industrial equipment (I mean who else has hobarts and steam kettles at home), so for me, it was "necessary" to start this journey, but if I was to do it again, I'd probably stage more and work in the industry before jumping in. However, cul. schools have become a huge profit-hungry business (the aftermarket technical colleges - the "art schools" of today), so they're not so much about training great cooks as they are about checks that don't bounce (a cynical view, yes, but the school loans that most of us are dealing with are outrageous in comparison to our typical take home pay). Still, I agree with all the other replies. Staging at most places are the best way to get the feel and more likely, get to know the reputations in the kitchen. The connections are what's key (I mean, how else was I to meet KC?), and even if you don't like the kitchen work, when a chef knows you and knows what you can do, they'll bring you in when they need you and refer you to other chefs that they know. Some of the best places do bring in their own whole animals, and if you get a good rep, maybe you can travel around and do the butchery for a group of fine dining locations (granted, this would take a long time to get started and all, but it's all about connections). Or you can be like the knife sharpeners that come by every week and work for the larger, higher-end hotels, showing up just to butcher their proteins. I'm just rambling now, but you have skills that every kitchen wants (and it opens up new worlds for the chef when they can just get larger cuts and break it down in-house), though it would be a lateral move unless you went "sub-contractor" and did it as a personal business venture - kind of like running your own butcher shop - only without the shop. Good luck :D
Herb
<man, sometimes, I just get that verbal diarrhea... :p>

[kcma]

community college is not a bad option. but slow :p and yes. if you can find good meat and provide custom work at good price. you'l find chefs who'll want your product. and bulk of your business should be that. not retail. at craft, we bought our meat from all over the place. mostly not local.

[kostantinos]

I feel you a lot...I do the same thing for the past year as a trade off for learning more about fish (fish i cut mostly)along and work the line in the evenings to pay bills at the same time...Butchering fish in a cold room sucks as much as other primals(yeah i cut steaks and trim other stuff too but fish is 95%)...Plus you have to remember that fish have guts and scales and bones etc so there is a small chalenge involved when the freaking thing weights over 45 lbs!!!Anyway being in a cold room all day has its pitfall...
I recently started loving the cooking part of the job...Now iam in the process of getting in a good place....And no you are not too old to start over but you have to compete with an ever growing army of culinary school students....Let me tell you some people have it some dont....KCMA again said it: This is not a job or career but a lifestyle sometimes a weird f lifestyle too.....Expect long hours work on holidays and weekends as well as a variety of aholes of all shapes and styles ......
But if you like the lifestyle and can stand the heat then you belong in a kitchen....

[kcma]

i love the cold room :)

[blwchef]

yeah, what they said
I love my career. Always more to learn. To quote many chefs "PUSH!"

[kcma]

that and, "where is my F-ing blank!!!??" :)

[Zach53]

Hi Fred. Yes I think it would be. It's funny that you ask that because the store manager and I have become good friends. We often talk about how nice it would be to own our own shop and be able to run things the way we want to.

Some people can remember neighborhoods, and a time when there was a tavern and a butcher shop on every corner. Those days have long gone, but the butcher shops that have been able to survive have become something of a gold mine. I don't know if that'll be the trend, say, 20-40 years from now, because large, centralized operations like Costco and Wal-Mart are coming down hard on us.

In my first post I mentioned management issues that I seem to be having. It's my strong feeling that it's the quality of the product that'll keep the small shops open. Not the huge variety of crap that they love to stuff the case with.

just a thought, if you cant beat em, join em. Costco offers good benefits and decent pay especially for something specified such at butchery.

[kcma]

and don't think that butchering has cease to exist :)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/kcma_2nd/food/03-28-08_0830.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/kcma_2nd/food/3ddb99ead6d4.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/kcma_2nd/food/c00dd03d567e.jpg

we did alot of butchering at restaurant :) and at my current job, we dont have bandsaw and space for butchering, and like many restaurants, we look for shops that would provide us with the cuts we want.

[rachael24]

Thanks for those pictures...I lost my appetite for the next 2 weeks :(

[kcma]

:) i think american as a culture has lost alot of respect and appriciation for where their food comes from and how it gets there :)

[blwchef]

You mean lamb chops aren't just born in that shrink wrapped package?! :0

[MartinPiller]

Don't try to be funny Brandon...,
We all know they grow on trees just like tuna sashimi leaves

[kcma]

no no, pork grows on trees :) lambs are roots that you dig up in spring time!

[thombrogan]

i think american as a culture has lost alot of respect and appriciation for where their food comes from and how it gets there

Chef Boyardee always says: Leave no witnesses

[kcma]

mmmmm..... raviolis!

[Arturo]

LATTC (the C school I graduated from) always gave away several scholarships in Chef Boiardi's name. He was a real dude, who had a thing for helping kids and the underprivaleged.

Arturo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Boyardee

[thombrogan]

He also helped feed the American GIs (probably also in the wiki link I'm about to read) during WWII.

[thombrogan]

Erik,

I apologize for being part of the reason the topic went off-course (though who can't resist the urge to discuss Chef Boyardee?). There are two parts to the equation:

Can you create or lead the creation in a profession that lets your acumen, experience, problem-solving abilities, and passion thrive?

Can you convince or find someone able to convince the paying public that their money is positively useless unless it's buying the goods and services you sell?

The first part (create) can either be a currently non-existant commodity or something that exists only just not yet with you at its helm. The second part is actually more important. If you were single, going homeless and dying poor might be cost one might accept in the name of "art," but if you have a loving wife and beautiful daughter, they deserve some form of compensation for being denied the pleasure of spending time with you (and when the kids are teens, they still need to be fed and clothed even if they don't want to be seen in public with their parents...). In a way, that is still creation. You must create something so compelling that people consider intensive psychotherapy for missing out on all of the times they could've dined at your restaurant or bought from your shop.

You could all of this with food or you could choose fields outside of food and invest some of the proceeds towards that backyards abbatoir (for when the in-laws show up with a steer, some slaw, and their forks).

[kcma]

thom, before all that... the question is really if he can volunteer to become a kitchen slavery for 3 years or so. and retrain himself :p and that's a difficult question... i dont think anyone is ever too old to start in it, look at arturo :) but it really is a life style and not just a job. and yes the family should definitely be involved in the decision making

[Erik Kolm]

"but if you have a loving wife and beautiful daughter, they deserve some form of compensation for being denied the pleasure of spending time with you"

"yes the family should definitely be involved in the decision making"

You know, I'm so frustrated with my current job that I just told my wife "honey, it used to be that while I was at work, I put my family second, and this job first." What I meant by that was that I didn't care if I had to start early or stay late. I was there to do whatever it took to get the job done.

But just this past week I reached my limit. My work schedule is set up around the care of my 2 year old daughter. She's in daycare on Mondays from 7:30 in the morning until almost 6:00 at night. My boss knows on Mondays that I HAVE to be ready to leave by 5:00. But it seems like they keep testing me. Making me stay past 5:00. There's been plenty of times that I've shown up to pick up my daughter...quarter till six...ten till six. And she's the last one sitting there. As a parent, it breaks my heart! And some of you know, these daycare places charge heavily if you're late. Mine charges $1.00 per minute after 6:00.

So anyway, my point is that on any other day of the week, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. But my employer can't do one thing in return for me. It would be different if we were getting killed on Monday and everyone was getting their butts kicked. But that's not the case at all. This past Monday they sent most people home early because of slow business. Leaving me alone up until the bitter end. I even had to go out front to help customers because they sent clerks home.

Do you know how great that would make me feel if they'd come up to me at 4:30, or even 4:50 and say "Hey, pull in and get out of here." Knowing my circumstances?

No more! From now on, my family always comes first. And that's the thing I've been thinking about the most. Is there any food service job that treats their employees civilly?

[thombrogan]

When your boss knows one hand washes the other and that you'll make their hand spotless in return even half a dab of Purell, work is awesome (I work in telecom). Your situation would have me unwinding by pouring blended Scotch and watching "Falling Down" a few times a week. :(

Do you have any skills that would let you work at the Busse company in Wauseon? They do all kinds of high-tech stuff to make knives (CNC, cryogenic processing, the works) and never seem to be able to make enough. edit to add Okay, dumb question there. :o Guess I'm too obsessed with knives.

[Erik Kolm]

I love Jerry Busse! I have two of his knives. a LE Battle Mistress (which was my first Busse) and a LE Steel Heart.

Bite your tongue, Thom! You can never be too obsessed with knives!

[thombrogan]

I only have two Fusion Battle Mistresses from Mr. Busse (had an Active Duty and an SF Natural Outlaw, but I solded them :( ). Have more knives from his wife's company (Muddy Chopweiler, Muddy M6, Muddy Howling Rat Little Mischief, Muddy Swamp Warden, and a Howling Rat).

[Erik Kolm]

I'd jump at a chance to work for Jerry. Even if it was to sweep the floor!

[thombrogan]

Sweep it? I'd snort the steel dust off the floor (except where they grind the 154CM - I may be shameless, but I'm still proud).

[Erik Kolm]

Maybe I'll take my Battle Mistress to work one day and use it to chop their warped, gouged, yellow, filthy, cross contaminated cutting boards in half while doing my best Gordon Ramsay impersonation "You Dirty !@#$%&*&%$#@! Effing Pigs!!"

Yes, Gordon is another hero of mine!

[Arturo]

Hah! You Should read Marco Pierre White's Autobiography A Devil in the Kitchen. He was Gordon's mentor.

As far as places to work, prolly the best combination of good pay and good working conditions are Hotels. But only the very best, The rest are just opening up cans. There is usually plenty of room for growth and multiple groups, banquets, room service, fine dineing and/or casual dining outlets. I worked at the Four Season's in the ATL and think they are a good company. The Ritz always does good food, they have a rep for having tough chef's. Then there are a lot of small high $$ hotels going up...

[thombrogan]

Um, maybe an idea best kept as a fantasy, Erik. Though, when the cuffs come on, the police will marvel that the blade could destroy all of your workplace cutting boards and still cleanly slice paper as they enter it into evidence.

[Erik Kolm]

Well put Thom. a fantasy at best! Arturo, I'll be sure and pick up that book sometime. I'm looking into the apprenticeship program you mentioned. The closest is in Farmington Hills, MI for me.

Didn't Gordon and Marco have something of a falling out?

[kcma]

i would never work anywhere union... and ritz wont pay better than regular restaurants. it drives me crazy to hear ppl say, i can't do this. not my job.

[SShepherd]

Erik, what side of toledo do you live on ?

Ever been to Kyoto Ka on central ave. ?

[Arturo]

i would never work anywhere union... and ritz wont pay better than regular restaurants. it drives me crazy to hear ppl say, i can't do this. not my job.

My experience has been that Hotels pay 3 or 4 $ more per hr. for the same job as a restaurant. Especially since you get paid less for working at bigger name places (they consider you get paid in knowlege!!!) The trade off is that you'll learn more in a restaurant because you have to be more on the leading edge to compete and the pressure on everyone is much greater. Where as even good Hotel restaurants tend to be more conservative to reach a broader customer base. And being profitable is not as big a stresser at hotels as you generally make money on rooms, banquets, weddings ect..

Plus to generalize there are much better benifits at hotels as well. Most restaurants have a pretty basic health plan

Arturo

[Erik Kolm]

I used to live not too far from Central Ave! But I've never been to Kyoto Ka. Right now I'm living just across the border in MI.

kcma, as someone who's supported and organized unions in my life, I can't say that I agree with you. But I don't disagree 100% with you either. Throughout my working career, all I've ever wanted was a fair balance of power.