Handmade Bread Question?

[AlanSellers]

I have been making fresh bread on and off for a year now and I have always been satisfied, at first I didn't scrutinise my results because I made a good loaf that had a good rise and tasted great compared to what I'd been eating before, but now one year on I am trying to refine my skills with plain white bread before moving on to other types and I would like some feedback from other bread makers here.

Here is a slice from my latest loaf:-
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s218/alansellers/DSCF6300.jpg

From the bottom it starts off dense and gets lighter and lighter until the crumb at the top is 3 times lighter than that at the bottom, I know this result is largely down to the kneading technique and I have taken steps to improve my kneading skills and show more discipline when doing it but I still see this result everytime I make a loaf.

Is it just a case of persevering until my kneading improves with practice or is this as good as it gets when doing it completely by hand?

I don't want to cop out and start using a machine to achieve a more consistent result because then I can't say I am capable of making bread but rather I am capable of operating a machine that can make bread.

[Arturo]

It looks a little under proofed to me? It's so hard to tell with out being there.

But it could be not getting enough oven spring, or something else.

As for kneeding by hand I highly recommend Richard Bertinet's book 'Crust'. not only is his kneeding technique good, but it comes with a video, so you can see it.


Arturo

http://www.amazon.com/Crust-Bread-Your-Teeth-Into/dp/1904920640/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

[Q_Egg]

Hard to be truly specific without knowing the formula and other proofing/baking details. My mentor leans heavily toward 'gloppy' doughs, minimal kneading, close temp control throughout. I regularly do French Country loaves and use a Braun Universal machine to mix formula ingredients (including a refreshed barm) ~ 12 minutes. After that, dough is at proofing temp, removed and folded in thirds every 30 minutes 3 or 4 times at start of first proof cycle (~3hrs total). Loaves are shaped and then proofed ~4 hrs. That second proof is most critical since overproofing results in major deflation when slashed at bake time.
All this may be 'out the window' if you are not using a starter and active dry or fresh yeast formula. My loaves are large and bake ~45 minutes at ~425*F with a darker, hard crust.

You may want to PM BDL ( Fred's Cutlery Forum ) about this since he can likely help.

I have found Peter Reinhart's book 'The Bread Baker's Apprentice' a great help .... a close second is Maggie Glezer's 'Artisan Baking Across America' with detailed formulae for a very wide range of breads. (and .. I am not a normal proponent of cookbooks or how-to books).

Tom B

[AlanSellers]

I understand it's hard to diagnose from pictures and description, with bread so many things can contribute to a problem.
Looking into the specifics of kneading I am convinced that is the problem, I have tried adjustments to other parts of the process and the kneading is the last possibility.

I thought I might be kneading too much but after checking some other sources I think it is a case of not kneading enough, I plan on making another loaf tommorow incorporating some new things into my method and I'll see how it goes, if that doesn't work I'll look at what you guys have suggested.

From what I have read not enough kneading can result in a dense bread and that seems to be what I am getting.

Thanks.

[Err]

Are you punching down after the first rise and then reproving?

Are you using a baking stone in your oven? This will help with oven spring.

[Q_Egg]

Are you punching down after the first rise and then reproving?
Are you using a baking stone in your oven? This will help with oven spring.
---------------------------------
...... and a good job 'misting' several times in the first couple minutes ?? Otherwise the crust can form too early and restrict the 'bounce'

Tom B

[AlanSellers]

Are you punching down after the first rise and then reproving?

Yes I am, I have always done that.


Are you using a baking stone in your oven? This will help with oven spring.

No, I have been wanting to get one but like most things right now it is a 'want' not a 'need' so I have to make do without.

[AlanSellers]

---------------------------------
...... and a good job 'misting' several times in the first couple minutes ?? Otherwise the crust can form too early and restrict the 'bounce'

That's a good point, I'll keep that in mind.

[Err]

You can use some quarry tiles or fire bricks to simulate a baking stone.

[Q_Egg]

For sure ! .... my Garland oven is lined with those 'yellowish' fireplace firebricks (4" x 9" x 1") on one rack and several lined up along oven sides and back on 'their' sides. Takes a bit more time and energy to get up to temp, but well worth it for the stability. Very cost effective .... Also, I could not get a baking stone of that size and it would be dang heavy if I could. If I break a brick, another is a couple bucks.

Tom B

[ksskss]

If you can find a store that deals in kilns, they make tiles that can be cut to size for your oven. Made of a similar material to the 'egg' it can handle heats to 2200º F and lots of thermal shock. That and spraying may help. Also a tightly formed piece of bread will give better rising characteristics, so how you shape the loaf has a major impact on how well it rises (and how well it traps yeast's 'gas'. If Warren checks in here, listen to him. He (and Fred) both have a serious amount of expertise.

---
Ken

[paulraphael]

HMy mentor leans heavily toward 'gloppy' doughs, minimal kneading, close temp control throughout.

Seems like all the beast breads (including pizza doughs) that I have are made this way. Letting the water handle the gluten development, and letting time handle flavor development.

A second vote for the Reinhart book. The techniques he discusses (especially delayed fermentation) give you consistently incredible bread. And easy ... the only drawback is time spent waiting.

[ksskss]

http://www.recipesonrails.com/recipes/show/436-baguette-no-knead-larger-loaf

Warren's site has lots of good recipies and some youtubes that are really helpful. His Pizza dough recipie is superb as well as all of his bread recipies.

---
Ken

[Q_Egg]

A helpful benefit .. to offset the rigors of maintaining a starter (barm in my case) .. is a ready source of extra goodies for things like pizza dough. I just change the formula ratio (from the refresh excess) to almost that of a firm starter and voile' outstanding sourdough pizza dough ! Freezes well too ...

Tom B

[AlanSellers]

I have been continuing to try and improve things and my results have improved, the rise is more even than it was but it is still more dense in the lower half of the loaf.
In order to avoid the crust forming and preventing the rise from completing I have been lightly oiling the surface of the dough before the second rise and it seems to have helped.

Through research online I found out about a test that helps indicate when the dough has been kneaded enough, it says to push a finger into the dough and if the hole remains it is ready, and if not then you must continue to knead.
When I tried this at the point I normally stop the first kneading the hole did not remain which seemed to confirm that I was not kneading enough previously.

The second time it was more difficult because the dough was softer and more elastic so it was difficult to see if it was ready or not. I do not know if this test is credible but it didn't do any harm and while my bread isn't quite as good as I'd like it is improving.

[AlanSellers]

This whole problem has been a strange learning curve for me, like I have said I have been making bread regularly for the last year and a half, at first I had no problems so I decided to think back to how I made it at the start and compare methods to see if a change I have made to try and improve things has actually had the opposite effect.

When I first began it was the middle of the summer so having warm temperatures I left the dough on the kitchen counter so it could proof, and it always worked well and provided consistent results.

As the seasons changed I decided to place the dough in the grill/second oven which heats at lower temperatures to provide warmth for the rise, one part of the problem you can see from the picture shows a dense bottom of the loaf to a lighter top half, I have discovered now that the heat during the rise was causing it to rise unevenly, because the temperature was not constant.

Even though it is cold now I have gone back to my original practice of just rising the dough at room temperature, whatever that temperature might be, consistency in this area has proven key. It makes sense but in all the information I have read from an array of different sources nowhere did it say that small temperature flucuations would cause an uneven rise, I just assumed that it would either speed up or slow down the yeast but ultimately result in the same quality, I paid for this assumption with months of problems.

Even though it was not so much to do with my kneading as I thought my research has led to a much improved method which I do believe has been a contributing factor to the improvement I have seen, one other change I have made is to increase the rise time from 2 hours to 3 hours for both times, I have also learnt that a longer rise makes for a more even rise.

I know this might be common knowledge but if someone starting out reads this it might save them a few months of frustration. :p

[jensd]

Yeah, using the oven as a warm enviroment, you have to care about your temperatures not getting too high. I learned this the hard way and often had to "revive the yeast" by adding some more...
I often read that a colder and slower rise gives more flavour and actually makes for a more controllable dough.

I personally use a plastic bowl with a lid and leave it at room temperature and using luke-warm water for the dough if I want to bake the same day. (in the next 4 hours)
If I prepare the dough 12-24h in advance I use cold water, mix the dough and put it in the fridge immediately.

I had the same problem as you but only when I used a kind of form to fill the dough with (a typical for toast-bread). At the time I just guessed that the dough can´t rise into all directions and so was more dense at the bottom but the reason might also be an unsufficient 2nd rise.

[RobinW]

I frequently use a crutch in the kitchen, a meat thermometer. It is for me, a home cook, a quicker way to learn how things feel, look and act when they are done.

Has anybody used a thermometer for accurately judging when the bread is done?

What is the core temp of a bred when finished?

Thanks!

[ksskss]

I frequently use a crutch in the kitchen, a meat thermometer. It is for me, a home cook, a quicker way to learn how things feel, look and act when they are done.

Has anybody used a thermometer for accurately judging when the bread is done?

What is the core temp of a bred when finished?

Thanks!

I aim for about 200 F (definitely below 212F)

---
Ken

[Q_Egg]

Right on ... 205*-208*F for me (but that is for large, hard-crust loaves (boules) cooking at higher temps (~425*F).
I do not usually have much faith in most meat thermometers, but this temp range is perfect since it is so easy to check (and adjust) using boiling water.

Tom B

[ksskss]

I leave one probe in the bread and another in the oven. Both are remote probes, so I can go watch tv rather than stand around the oven. The second probe keeps me from burning bread, since ovens can significantly overshoot the temp youi set it on.

---
Ken

[Q_Egg]

Sorry for brief hijack ....
Always have great results with Thom Leonard's Country French Miche formula and do it every two weeks. Tried his Kalamata Olive version (almost identical formula) yesterday. Excellent taste and crumb, but the rise was much less than expected. My bad ... since I usually mill whole wheat for each bake of the French (only 9 oz) against 26 oz unbleached white Bread flour. His Kalamata version has no whole wheat and equal portions of AP and Bread flour. Is my substitution of whole wheat for the AP a logical reason for the low rise? What is the chemical reaction mechanism which impacts it?

Max vertical is 2 3/4"

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/doubtingtom/ThomLeonardsKalamataOliveLoaf_DSC_2.jpg


Tom B

[Fred]

Yes, whole wheat flour has less gluten. You might have under proofed it as well. Can't tell from an image.

[Q_Egg]

Thank-you for the gluten comment. Proofing is pretty consistent in terms of time and temp .... although in hot Summer temps here, I do actually see the effects of overproofing .. (huge deflation when scoring loaves).
This bread is so good, it is no concern to do again very soon and use Thom L.'s formula without exception.
OTH .... these two loaves are a definite treat in spite of the low rise!

........ keep looking so hard at that Kikuichi Kawamuki on clearance ! :cool:

Regards,
Tom B

[Scott]

So, what I'm getting here is that the Wal-Mart bread machine isn't the way to make good bread? :p

For that matter, can "good" bread be made in a machine?

Scott

[AlanSellers]

I have never used a bread machine but another chef used one regularly at my last job to make rolls for executive functions and they always seemed to come out fine.

I think learning to do it by hand is not that difficult, especially if your willing to persevere when things go wrong. There really isn't any need to spend money on a machine when you can just as easliy do it by hand.

[Scott]

About 10 years ago I got a bread machine that seems to cook bread pretty well. The problem is I haven't been able to find and REALLY good bread mixes for the machine. They are OK, but not great.

I used to LOVE banana bread, but I haven't been able to find ANY machine mixes for it (or recipes, for that matter). I'd also like to get both a good recipe for a wheat and a sourdough bread.

I would like to try a handmade bread, but I don't have funds for the admittedly limited list of equipment... not to mention time. :)

Scott