Getting a handle on handles: Wa vs. Western Gyuto

[kappadonna]

What is your opinion on Wa handles vs. Western handles specifically on gyutos?

I have heard some say that Wa does not belong on a western pattern, and I have also heard that western does not belong on Japanese made knife.

Some argue that due to the 'type' of cutting being done with a Gyuto, a Wa handle does not work as well???

Just curious, considering some of the top Japanese knife makers don't offer western handled Gyutos.

Is there is a middle ground? Is a Gyuto Japanese or Western?

If you were offered a Gyuto from a top producer such as Tadatsuna, Shigefusa, Watanabe (assuming they made western), etc. would you choose wa or western, and why?

Just looking for insights. I am purchasing a knife from a highly regarded craftman from Japan, and am having a difficult time deciding between wa and western. Both are beautifully constructed, but the western is $200 more for the same knife. However, it is IMO the most beautifully finished western Japanese knife I have ever seen. On the other hand, it is made by Japanese man, in Japanese shop, using traditional Japanese methods and a part of me wants the Wa for sentimental reasons--

This knife is very hard to come by, so it will be a one-time purchase--but I have the option of either one.

THoughts?

[kcma]

i'll always go with wa handle.

[kappadonna]

i'll always go with wa handle.


That's great, but what are the reasons?

Is it function?

Tradition?

Cutting style?

Does wa suit western cutting technique?

[iceman01]

the western is $200 more for the same knife.


Interesting, with Tadatsuna and Sakai Takayuki it is the other way around, the Wa version is more expensive. Takayuki says it results from the fact that the Wa handle requires much more skills and experience to attach it.

[Messy Jesse]

I prefer Wa as well.

I like how Wa handles are almost weightless. All of the weight of the knife is in the blade and right over what you are cutting. Western handles feel so heavy to me now.

Another thing I like is how Wa handles allow for different grips and handling techniques. When I was trained with Western knives I learn to basically grip the blade with a pinch grip and never let go of that grip all day. Now that my knife skills have improved, I switch grips often and use grips that are suited to the task and knife. Wa handles allow this much better than Western, IMO.

And finally, I think they look way cooler. :cool:

[sushicide]

I dislike western handles except Nenox and few other hybrid types, maybe it's just me trying to rebel against the old crap they tell people at culinary schools - "look for triple rivets and full tang, those are the signs of a well made knife" in fact they're also noticeably heavier and more prone to F&F issues, however if one day I somehow end up with the equipment to make my own, I'm sure I'd feel otherwise.

[paulraphael]

Another thing I like is how Wa handles allow for different grips and handling techniques. When I was trained with Western knives I learn to basically grip the blade with a pinch grip and never let go of that grip all day. Now that my knife skills have improved, I switch grips often and use grips that are suited to the task and knife. Wa handles allow this much better than Western, IMO.

My feelings exactly. Wa handles made me nervous but I fell in love quickly. I should add that my wa-experience is mostly limited to gyutos, so I can't comment on other western pattern knives like sujis, petties, etc.

[anvlts]

I dislike western handles except Nenox and few other hybrid types, maybe it's just me trying to rebel against the old crap they tell people at culinary schools - "look for triple rivets and full tang, those are the signs of a well made knife" in fact they're also noticeably heavier and more prone to F&F issues, however if one day I somehow end up with the equipment to make my own, I'm sure I'd feel otherwise.

you need just a few hand tools to make your western handle. so, maybe it is time?

[willspear]

buy pre cut scales and some files and or a dremel and you could be well on your way.

[Pensacola Tiger]

I prefer a wa handle, partly because it is more adaptable than the western style (as others have noted), but primarily because of the weight savings. In your case, it's also a significant cost savings.

[Seb]

Interesting, with Tadatsuna and Sakai Takayuki it is the other way around, the Wa version is more expensive. Takayuki says it results from the fact that the Wa handle requires much more skills and experience to attach it.

That's very interesting.

Before, I had assumed that, when a given maker's WA knives are priced above the YO knife from the same series, this was because that maker's WA knives had thinner blades and were therefore more costly/difficult to make. And then there are other makers whose YO knives cost more than the WA equivalent (eg Sakai Yusuke) and I assumed that this is because the blades are pretty much identical.

However, my gut instinct tells me that the reason is often a strategic marketing decision that has less to do with cost and more to do with the maker/brand attaching more prestige (and therefore a premium) to their WA models. WA-models also sometimes have their spines and choils eased/rounded and this would certainly add to the cost.

And then there are WA handles and there are WA handles - probably they are not all the same - the octagonal ones made from quality HO-wood with premium buffalo-horn ferrules would cost more than, say, a D-shape made from lesser HO-wood with an inferior buffalo-horn ferrule.

[FryBoy]

I like how Wa handles are almost weightless. All of the weight of the knife is in the blade and right over what you are cutting. Western handles feel so heavy to me now.

Another thing I like is how Wa handles allow for different grips and handling techniques. When I was trained with Western knives I learn to basically grip the blade with a pinch grip and never let go of that grip all day. Now that my knife skills have improved, I switch grips often and use grips that are suited to the task and knife. Wa handles allow this much better than Western, IMO.

And finally, I think they look way cooler. :cool:

Interesting. I'm a total amateur cook, no training whatsoever, and I'm sure my knife "techniques" (if you can call them that) would cause KCMA to have a conniption fit if he ever saw me chopping an onion. Nonetheless, I've been cooking for 50 years, I enjoy it, and I'm pretty good at it -- for a home cook.

I own quite a few knives, including the Wusthof Classics I've had since before most of you were born, a number of good Japanese knives (mostly Hattori), and a few decent traditional Japanese blades (Deba, Yanagi, Petty, etc., made by Tanaka, Sakai, etc.) with Wa handles, and one Shun Classic Santoku with a Wa handle.

With my limited skills and experience, I find that the traditional Western handle has one advantage over the Wa handle, and that's balance. Yes, the knife weighs more, and I don't use it 8 hours per day, but I find that having the balance right at the point where the handle meets the blade to be an advantage, allowing me to maneuver the blade more easily. Perhaps that's just lack of experience with the traditional Japanese knives.

Also, I've had problems with the Wa handle coming off at least one of my knives, something that can't happen with a Western-style handle. To my eye, it looks as if the blade is simply pounded into the wood handle, clearly less secure that the full-tang, riveted handles of Western knives.

One notable exception is the Shun Classic Santoku -- the handle is very heavy compared to my other Wa-handled blades, perhaps even weighted on the end. As a result, the balance is right at the point where the blade meets the handle. Also, it looks to be made in a way that will prevent it from ever coming off, with metal bolsters at each end.

Of course, the issue of balance may have a lot to do with how and where one grips the blade, so persons trained in the proper use of such knives may have different opinions.

Old dog, new tricks = difficult to master.

One other thing -- the "cool factor," which I do get, is IMHO mostly due to the Wa handle being different from the Western handle familiar to most American cooks.

[DrNaka]

The wa handle must have thicker blade because the blade-width you can put in is thinner.
It is suited for hand forged knives because you can make a taper very easy thick spine at handle and thin to the tip.

On the other side western handle you can have thicker blade-width and so thinner blade. It is suited for stamped and welded mass production knives which are not so tapered. The rivet position are no problems for mass produced knives. So they can put mass produced western handles on these knives.

If a blacksmith is making hand forged knives rivet position differ by each knife. So western handle must be made custom too. So sometimes western handle is more expensive.

Just my opinion and correct me if wrong.
I think there are many here who makes knives and know better.

[Mingooch]

I am a home cook and just love the feel of the wa handles. Love the way one can use them. The ease of using varied grips. I can't wait for my next beauty, a custom Hiro Itou that will get a Stefan wa handle on it.

[paulraphael]

One thing I'm noticing with wa handles is that they give a specic kind of control that's harder to get with western handles. If you use a grip that puts any fingertips on the handle, you get very precise control over rotating the blade ... like if making thin slices and you feel any tendency for the bevel to steer the blade in or out. Your fingertips on the round (or roundish) handle are almost like a safe cracker's fingers on a combination dial ... just the lightest nudge one way or other controlls the rotation of the blade. I find it hard to get this kind of precise feel with a western handle.

[el pescador]

Im left handed so the western style or "Yo" handles are my preference. I have had a few lefty wa gyutos grace my knife bar, but usually I have to order the wa. Im just too impulsive for that.

This is a shame because I have yet to find a 0 degree bevel on a western handled knife.

pesky

[kappadonna]

Good responses so far.

If you were getting a 'rare' gyuto made by a master smith in Japan, besides functional aspects, would it make more sense to go wa???

[Messy Jesse]

It's likely most here, would.

But ultimately, it's your knife, your preference, your choice. Right?

[DrNaka]

And there are so many sorts of wa handles.
From round ones with plastic ferrules which are cheap to octagonal ebony ones with silver inlet up to 100000Yen.
The Ivory ones which are more expensive are no more on market and it is forbidden to export it.
So which wa handle do you like?

[kappadonna]

And there are so many sorts of wa handles.
From round ones with plastic ferrules which are cheap to octagonal ebony ones with silver inlet up to 100000Yen.
The Ivory ones which are more expensive are no more on market and it is forbidden to export it.
So which wa handle do you like?

Maybe I should specify seeing as the quality of Wa handles varies from maker to maker.

So the knife under question is:

Shigefusa 240mm Kasumi Gyuto - Wa or Western

[kappadonna]

Other...

[willspear]

I think most shig westerns look like crap

no offense to people who like em just my thoughts and shig wa handles from the sounds of it (I dont own one) are good.


there was a bolsterless shig "western" that I saw that looked good though it was a much simpler looking approachhttp://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/nzshinkai/img10591480799.jpeg

[kappadonna]

I think most shig westerns look like crap

no offense to people who like em just my thoughts and shig wa handles from the sounds of it (I dont own one) are good.


there was a bolsterless shig "western" that I saw that looked good though it was a much simpler looking approachhttp://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/nzshinkai/img10591480799.jpeg

Really? I wish I thought that of the Shig handle, would make my decision much easier.

I don't like the bolsterless western in the pic.

[DrNaka]

That wa handle is "kuri" type and maybe something like 1000 to 2000Yen.
Octagonal will be something like 3000Yen and Ebony one 7000Yen.
If you want Ebony with silver inlay they cost 12000yen and up.
I think if it is a shigefusa for order you can choose the quality and type of the wa handle.
The price what I wrote changes from maker to maker.

[iceman01]

What I have learned is that when you compare the western handles of western and Japanese makers there are slight differences. In most cases, except Tojiro, the Japanese western handles are slimmer and less bulky than their European counterparts, take for example Wüsthof. So I think of these Japanese western handles as a westernized version of the Wa handles.
Still, the best handle I know is the one on the MAC Pros, although I really like octagonal Wa handles and those made by Suisin, Aoki and Yoshihiro are really, really good, but each and everyone of them will have a hard time competing with a MAC Pro handle.

[kappadonna]

That wa handle is "kuri" type and maybe something like 1000 to 2000Yen.
Octagonal will be something like 3000Yen and Ebony one 7000Yen.
If you want Ebony with silver inlay they cost 12000yen and up.
I think if it is a shigefusa for order you can choose the quality and type of the wa handle.
The price what I wrote changes from maker to maker.

Shig only makes one handle--


Regardless, I am getting my Gyuto in Wa. Will be my first Wa handle knife.

[Pensacola Tiger]

Shig only makes one handle--


Regardless, I am getting my Gyuto in Wa. Will be my first Wa handle knife.

Won't be your last. :)

[mongatu]

I love the blade forward balance on wa handled gyutos. When I first tried one, it took about 2 minutes to get used to it and then I was hooked.

I'm could go either way with some knives such as petty and honesuki, but for gyutos I vastly prefer a decent wa handle.

[Vic]

+1. It was an epiphany for me.


I love the blade forward balance on wa handled gyutos. When I first tried one, it took about 2 minutes to get used to it and then I was hooked.

I'm could go either way with some knives such as petty and honesuki, but for gyutos I vastly prefer a decent wa handle.

[Fred]

I definitely prefer western handled, bolstered chef knives. The western handles are more durable and the knives are better balanced because of the bolsters and full tang. There simply is no downside to the western handle for me. Yes, my favorite chef knife has a traditional handle and stick tang but it is not my favorite because of the handle.

Obviously these things are a matter of personal preference. It they weren't then everyone would have the same knife.

[Newbflat]

I definitely prefer western handled, bolstered chef knives. The western handles are more durable and the knives are better balanced because of the bolsters and full tang. There simply is no downside to the western handle for me. Yes, my favorite chef knife has a traditional handle and stick tang but it is not my favorite because of the handle.

Obviously these things are a matter of personal preference. It they weren't then everyone would have the same knife.

+1

I have both and i just don't see that much of a dif. A few things i like the light weight of the wa handle for like working in hand with the tip but i also prefer the yo handle for chopping say an onion..... i like the extra weight.

One is not better than the other, just dif.

[paulraphael]

I definitely prefer western handled, bolstered chef knives. The western handles are more durable and the knives are better balanced ...

Do you use a lot of western cutting techniques, like rock chopping?

[Fred]

I sure do.

[paulraphael]

That explains it. Western handles are designed for those cutting techniques; wa handles are designed for different ones.

[boar_d_laze]

That explains it. Western handles are designed for those cutting techniques; wa handles are designed for different ones.

Not really.

BDL

[paulraphael]

Not really.

BDL

I think it's true. Not to say that you can't rock chop with a wa handle, or that you can't use techniques like tsuki-giri with a western handle ... it's just that each set of handles and techniques evolved together.

I notice that almost everyone who prefers western handles cites balance as a reason for their prfefence. As does almost everyone who prefers wa handles. Makes sense to me ... two different kinds of balance, two different kinds of techniques. I love the bolster-centered balance of my german knife when rock chopping rosemary or mincing duxelles. But it doesn't serve me so well when trying to make paper thin thrusting cuts of apples or root vegetables. And I can't dice an onion anywhere near as quickly or precisely.

The reason for my general wa handle preference for a gyuto is that i've grown to prefer the Japanese knife techniques for the majority of the cutting that I do, and the wa handle, not so surprisingly, serves those techniques better.

[Fred]

I have no way to compare handle style to cutting style. I cut how I cut. I prefer western handles for everything. Period. I like the durability and balance. Understand my favorite gyuto has a stick tang and traditional handle and I use it the same way I do any other gyuto. It just doesn't balance as well as the western handled gyutos. Great steel. Not so great handle. For me it isn't the shape of the handle that matters. I only put my pinky finger on the handle. It is the balance of the chef knife. For me balanced is better than blade heavy for everything.

[Newbflat]

That explains it. Western handles are designed for those cutting techniques; wa handles are designed for different ones.

I don't use a rocking technique but use yo handles.. Both wa and yo handles are in the same place and some wa handles are the same size as yo handles... Some made of wood like rosewood and ebony are almost the same weight as a yo handle....

[paulraphael]

Understand my favorite gyuto has a stick tang and traditional handle and I use it the same way I do any other gyuto.

I think in a sense you're working against the strength of the design. Techniques like rock chopping tend to favor a knife balanced near the bolster. Other techniques (that it sounds like you don't use) can work with any balance, but seem to work particularly well with a more forward one.

All knives "balance" ... the question is where is the balance point, and how well does that serve a particular technique?

[Newbflat]

Techniques like rock chopping tend to favor a knife balanced near the bolster.

Why is that?

[Seb]

Interestingly, the translated version of Ichimonji's page featuring their WA-gyutos suggests that one of the main reasons for traditional handles on western-style knives is to fit better into the atmosphere of a Japanese kitchen.

[Fred]

I think in a sense you're working against the strength of the design. Techniques like rock chopping tend to favor a knife balanced near the bolster. Other techniques (that it sounds like you don't use) can work with any balance, but seem to work particularly well with a more forward one.

All knives "balance" ... the question is where is the balance point, and how well does that serve a particular technique?

I didn't think I needed to explain that. I want the knife to balance where I hold it. I don't care where yours balances.

[thombrogan]

Techniques like rock chopping tend to favor a knife balanced near the bolster.


Why is that?

With more weight near the heel, less external force (muscle power) is needed.

[paulraphael]

I didn't think I needed to explain that. I want the knife to balance where I hold it. I don't care where yours balances.

You're making the preference sound purely personal or arbitrary; my point is that it's strongly influenced by technique.

If I'd continued with the European techniques that I'd learned over the years, my Tadatsuna would have been a disasterous purchase ... totally useless. But because I decided to learn the techniques it was designed to suppord, I now cut better than I've ever cut before. The handle is a small part of the equation, but it's a part.

When I use my German knife for the heavy stuff it's good for, I still have those Euro techniques that it handles so well.

[Newbflat]

With more weight near the heel, less external force (muscle power) is needed.

But it also means more weight to lift up and down. This could make it slower and more tiring than using a wa handle. I just don't buy the argument.

[paulraphael]

But it also means more weight to lift up and down. This could make it slower and more tiring than using a wa handle. I just don't buy the argument.

I don't think it's an absolute, It's just a feel that a lot of people who rock chop prefer. My German knife has a very neutral balance (right at the bolster). Even though it's a heavy knife, it feels almost weightless when you rock it, because it balances rigth over your middle finger. I find it really satisfying for rocking.

On the other hand, trying to do Japanese cutting techniques is just super awkward.

[Fred]

You're making the preference sound purely personal or arbitrary; my point is that it's strongly influenced by technique.



Yes. I view it that way. We simply don't agree.

[ordo]

The world, as such, is a personal experience. Go figure knife's handles.

[paulraphael]

Yes. I view it that way. We simply don't agree.

I just don't understand what your view is based on if you don't use the Japanese techniques.

[Newbflat]

I just don't understand what your view is based on if you don't use the Japanese techniques.

Could you explain what you consider "Japanese techniques" to be.

[paulraphael]

Could you explain what you consider "Japanese techniques" to be.

I'm mostly talking about techniques adapted from traditional Japanese cutting techniques for use with thin, sharp gyutos. Like tsuki-giri (thrust cut), oshi-giri (push cut), and sogi-giri (diagonal slice), and speed chopping (not sure the japanese name).

These are originally usuba and yanagi techniques. They're executed with very little force and without grinding the edge into the cutting board, as you do with rock chopping. They require a very sharp blade. They also allow you to use a sharper, thinner blade than what could survive western style cutting.

You've probably seen KC's videos ... these are the techniques he's using.

[thombrogan]

But it also means more weight to lift up and down. This could make it slower and more tiring than using a wa handle. I just don't buy the argument.

Archimedes, dear Sir, would buy my argument (but he's d-e-d). On a forward balanced-blade, the majority of the weight is already on the board before the cut is made (low technique) or barely involved instantly after the start of the cut (high technique). With neutrally-balanced blades, not only is the weight concentrated where most of the cut takes place, it's also where it impinges least against the user's wrist (holding a heavy weight against one's chest is easier than holding the same weight at arm's length).

That said, I prefer weight-forward blades for rearwards and down cutting (or straight down cutting) because that's the way my wifey cuts, that's the way some of the Japanese-trained guys here taught me to cut, and it doesn't bugger the edges on my overly-thin knives the way forward/down cutting does. Okay, I just prefer blades. Period.

[Newbflat]

I'm mostly talking about techniques adapted from traditional Japanese cutting techniques for use with thin, sharp gyutos. Like tsuki-giri (thrust cut), oshi-giri (push cut), and sogi-giri (diagonal slice), and speed chopping (not sure the japanese name).

These are originally usuba and yanagi techniques. They're executed with very little force and without grinding the edge into the cutting board, as you do with rock chopping. They require a very sharp blade. They also allow you to use a sharper, thinner blade than what could survive western style cutting.

You've probably seen KC's videos ... these are the techniques he's using.

Ok... That is how i cut.

I have never found much difference in using a wa handled gyuto vs a yo and i think the biggest reason is becouse i use a pinch grip 95% of the time. My TKC feels almost exactly the same on the board as my Tadatuna of the same size. And the Hattori Forum 270 wa that my friend brought over was barely different on the boars than my Masahiro HC.....The reason as far as im concerned is i end up gripping them in the same balance point. The choil on a wa knife is a lot farther forward than a yo handled knife. On my TKC and the Masamoto the balance is more or less in the same spot as the Hattori and the Tadatuna... 1/2-3/4 inch in front of the choil. My TKC only weighs 50grams more than my Tada.... I didn't weight the Hattori.

[Newbflat]

Archimedes, dear Sir, would buy my argument (but he's d-e-d). On a forward balanced-blade, the majority of the weight is already on the board before the cut is made (low technique) or barely involved instantly after the start of the cut (high technique). With neutrally-balanced blades, not only is the weight concentrated where most of the cut takes place, it's also where it impinges least against the user's wrist (holding a heavy weight against one's chest is easier than holding the same weight at arm's length).

That said, I prefer weight-forward blades for rearwards and down cutting (or straight down cutting) because that's the way my wifey cuts, that's the way some of the Japanese-trained guys here taught me to cut, and it doesn't bugger the edges on my overly-thin knives the way forward/down cutting does. Okay, I just prefer blades. Period.

Well if your going to bring up smart old dead guys... I was thinking more of Newton's law's of motion. Archimedesis is way to old. Newton however is way more with it, and im assuming they both used yo handled knives... :rolleyes:

[paulraphael]

Hard to compare. Newton cut apples; Archimedes cut spheres and cylinders.

[Newbflat]

Hard to compare. Newton cut apples; Archimedes cut spheres and cylinders.

Exactly... he was cutting food... with a knife. :D

[thombrogan]

Well if your going to bring up smart old dead guys... I was thinking more of Newton's law's of motion. Archimedesis is way to old. Newton however is way more with it, and im assuming they both used yo handled knives... :rolleyes:

Handles hadn't been invented yet. Both scientists used to stare at sharp strips of steel on the counter near the food they mashed with rocks and cried while they cooked.

If you think Newton is way more with it, it certainly explains your equal, yet opposite, reaction.

[boar_d_laze]

What exactly do we mean by "rock chopping?"

Pressing against the spine at the tip, and rocking the knife back and forth on the arc of its belly in order to mince?

What about the "silent French assassain" technique of dropping the tip, then dropping the edge while sliding the blade forward in a chugga chugga motion like a railroad train y'all -- so the cutting action is half push cut, and half slice -- like a guillotine.

Any motion which starts tip down?

What?

BDL

[Newbflat]

Handles hadn't been invented yet. Both scientists used to stare at sharp strips of steel on the counter near the food they mashed with rocks and cried while they cooked.

If you think Newton is way more with it, it certainly explains your equal, yet opposite, reaction.

Wow i hadn't realised .. a very good time for physics, but a very dark time for the kitchen sciences.

Just arguing agents generalizing when there are to many variables.

[paulraphael]

What exactly do we mean by "rock chopping?"

Pressing against the spine at the tip, and rocking the knife back and forth on the arc of its belly in order to mince?

What about the "silent French assassain" technique of dropping the tip, then dropping the edge while sliding the blade forward in a chugga chugga motion like a railroad train y'all -- so the cutting action is half push cut, and half slice -- like a guillotine.

Usually the latter. The mincing technique often just gets called "mincing." Both techniques favor a fairly robust edge.

[thombrogan]

Chugga chugga for me (or not so much).

[half_hack]

That explains it. Western handles are designed for those cutting techniques; wa handles are designed for different ones.

totally disagree with this statement (or: agree/side with BDL and fred in this debate).

The designs of these handles came about regardless of cutting technique; they came about because of manufacturing techniques and handle philosophy. But mostly because of the latter, i suspect. The Japanese prefer a somewhat temporary handle which can easily be replaced. Western handles are more or less meant to survive the lifetime of the knife. That's what I see as the main difference, and it has nothing to do with cutting style so far as I can tell.

It's been argued that the middle balance of a western-handled knife favors rock-chopping. However, the only thing that truly favors rock-chopping is a dull, thick knife where the added leverage afforded by that technique is necessary to pulverize the food being cut, and the thick blade is unharmed by the rough handling. rock-chopping with a thin, hard blade - regardless of the handle - feels ridiculous (for me, at least).

Also, the balance difference between wa- and western- handled knives is only really significant in the 180-240ish length. Generally, regardless of handle, anything shorter balances towards the back, and anything longer balances towards the tip. If differing balances were truly driving cutting techniques, you would expect the cutting technique between a 210mm knife to be quite different from a 270mm. But it isn't.

Then, just to muddle the argument, we could talk about how Iron Chefs Morimoto and Sakai mostly seem to use western-handled knives, at least in the original series.

Anyways, these days, I'm preferring western handles for two reason:1, as fred mentioned, is durability. I can stick my western handled knife in the sink, and run it under water and not really care too much. wa-handle, not so much (despite copious amounts of board gunk and expoxy). 2: handle length. I like the shorter handle length of a western handle. Visually a nice long wa- handle looks really cool as it balances out the long blade, but it gets in my way functionally. This is exacerbated by the fact that I'm not super tall, and the counter top gets pretty high once you've got a 3" tall cutting board on top of it. Unless I'm very careful to keep the blade inline with my elbow, the butt of the handle starts to interfere with my forearm and the knife (or I) just starts to feel clumsy.

[paulraphael]

The designs of these handles came about regardless of cutting technique; they came about because of manufacturing techniques and handle philosophy. But mostly because of the latter, i suspect. The Japanese prefer a somewhat temporary handle which can easily be replaced. Western handles are more or less meant to survive the lifetime of the knife. That's what I see as the main difference, and it has nothing to do with cutting style so far as I can tell.

I don't know how you can make this claim in such absolute terms. The handles and the cutting techinques (like most tools and their associated techniques) probably evolved side by side. No one does anything resembling rock chopping with an usuba; if there were a need in Japanese cookery for such a technique, a different blade would have certainly evolved, and I'd bet that a handle that lends a different feel and balance would have evolved too.

But we're both just speculating. Origins are one thing; results are another. While it's clearly not unanimous, I'm willing to bet we'd find a general preference for wa handles among people who use japanese techniques, and a preference for yo handles among those who use european techniques.

Maybe I'm wrong. Do we need a poll?

[willspear]

handle is a handle

pick whatever is more comfortable/looks more appealing to you etc, or get a knife because it's good regaurdless of handle.

making totally lofty claims about handle origins and their perceived strength is foolish at best.


that being said the reason I like wa handles is the general way the knife feels in my hand and western handles are often to cramped for my ham fists. We all know the japanese didnt invent handles for hamfisted americans on purpose...right:p

[half_hack]

No one does anything resembling rock chopping with an usuba; if there were a need in Japanese cookery for such a technique, a different blade would have certainly evolved

It did - the sushikiri (http://korin.com/Styles/Sushi-Roll-Knife). Same handle though :D

http://www.japanese-knife.com/products_pictures/thumnail_hkr-g3-su225.jpg

Apparently, "No formal training is needed to use this knife like a pro!"


But we're both just speculating. Origins are one thing; results are another. While it's clearly not unanimous, I'm willing to bet we'd find a general preference for wa handles among people who use japanese techniques, and a preference for yo handles among those who use european techniques.

Agreed on the first sentence. But it is fun though, isn't it? Also agree on the likely outcome of your bet, but relationship does not necessarily equal causality. Is the preference because it's what people are used to, or what they were taught with, what's better for their technique, or because of the geometry of the associated blade (ie: generalizing, most western handled knives have thick blades which favor rock-chopping and most wa-handled gyuto/chef's knives have thin edges which favour more delicate techniques). Although having said that, a capable retort would be to ask me to point out a wa- handled western deba -- which, outside of artisanal makers like takeda and moritaka and the oddball tadatsuna (http://itkitchenknife.com/wood.shtml) (egad, those are pricey), pretty much doesn't seem to exist.

[ChrisLehrer]

Not that I have any evidence, of course, but I'd bet that the main difference here, historically speaking, has to do with tang and handle-fixing technologies. Japanese knives were made with rattail tangs quite some ways back, and the handles reflect this. I think the issue of technique is a red herring: I find it very difficult to believe that the early saikiri / nakiri -type knives used by country wives in the 16th century and such were delicate knives or that they were used with a lot of delicate technique. I think they were knocked out of cheap steel and ground very coarsely indeed, and then used with more or less delicacy or precision as the user and the grinding permitted. Yet these knives have those same "wa" handles.

[paulraphael]

Maybe it's indeed just an accident of technological history. The result is the same regardless; those handles work really well for japanese-type techniques.

[thombrogan]

Gyutos and some European chef knives with western handles do, too. There are a lot of cutlery accidents going on around here these days.

[boar_d_laze]

It's worth noting that plenty of western culinary knives were made with stick and/or rat-tail tangs. For instance, the "Nogents" currenlty sold by Thiers Issard, have a handle which sort of splits the difference between a trad Japanese and a full-tang "western."

My experience is that unless the particular handle is incredibly uncomortable, generic handle shape itself doesn't makes much difference in what I can and can not do; nor even go very far towards the ease with which it's done.

Also, with a few exceptions, I impose my grip(s) on the handle and not the other way around. Clearly, the grip has a lot more to do with technique (hell, it is technique!) than the handle.

I'm not constrained by the handle as to choosing Asian cutting techniques or European. More specifically, if the knife determined whether I used push cut, or the French style chopping technique I usually use, I'd get a different knife. The arced edges and big bellies of German profiles demand a rocking motion. One reason among several to prefer a French profile on a chef's/gyuto. That and things like it are more affected by blade than handle geometries.

If you can't push cut a Euro handle, "speed chop," use it with absolute control for blade angle, control the knife from its spine, or even use an "asian" grip (pinch the handle, not the blade), you can't do it with a Japanese handle either.

It's not the handle, it's the hand.

Or something,
BDL

[kcma]

It's the hand. But certain handles feels better ;) which is why I don't own any or consider any western handle knives.

[Messy Jesse]

Well said BDL.