First sharpening session with Edge Pro Apex... [Archive]

kappadonna

01-31-2010, 01:21 PM

I do like to free hand, but there are many times I wish I hadnt sold mine. It's really nice for setting a nice consistent bevel on a new knife. Make polishing much easier if the initial work is done right

I really don't see an advantage free hand has over EP when it comes to double bevel knives.

EP has the technical advantage--

Set up and take down time are negligible--

Stones don't need to be soaked--

Of course freehand can get a knife just as sharp, and for those who view free hand as an art, and stones as a hobby, then obviously freehand is for them.

What I do disagree with is the idea that freehand offers better performance, because it doesn't--especially now considering you can get pre-cut Chosera stones (up to 10k) and the like for the EP.

Pensacola Tiger

01-31-2010, 02:19 PM

... especially now considering you can get pre-cut Chosera stones (up to 10k) and the like for the EP.

I just finished a Sakai Yusuke wa-petty with a Shapton Pro 15k EP stone. What an edge! I think I prefer the Shapton Pros to the Choceras because they don't require soaking.

Glad you''re enjoying your new Apex, BTW.

buzzard767

01-31-2010, 07:44 PM

Good on ya, kappadonna. I'm mostly a free hander but I always use my EP when doing knives for neighbors and friends. I thin their Wusthofs to 10 degrees and then rough in a 15 degree primary angle before finishing it off with free hand polishing stones. My Apex is here to stay.

bcrano

12-21-2010, 11:31 PM

Hey guys,
I'm just about to enter the world of sharpening as my arsenal is being sent to me...I've been debating freehand - which I might want to learn at some point, but am concerned about doing it on nice knives - as I have only few... Is an EP something you would recommend? From watching the video it seems doable and if the edge getting ability is there -- is there any disadvantage other than psychic or losing cool guy points?

I would hate to get Dave to tune up a nice new knife and then F it up trying to free hand without much practice...Thanks as ever. I hope everyone gets something very sharp for the holidays!

Rob Babcock

12-21-2010, 11:52 PM

Yeah, you'll maybe lose macho points!;) But the EP will do a tremendous job. It takes a bit of practice, and there's some learning curve. But once you get the hang of it you can get great results. I used to have the Apex but moved up to the Professional model, and I say flat out I wish I'd upgraded years ago. The Pro is much nicer but even the Apex will give you a great edge. The set up is even better with the aftermarket Chocera & Shapton stones.

Fred

12-22-2010, 02:09 AM

It is possible but difficult to match the performance of the Edgepro by hand sharpening on bench stones. I myself can do it sometimes when I have time to fool with it. I believe it is impossible to exceed the performance of the Edgepro by hand on a double bevel blade. There isn't any substitue for accurate and consistent bevels.

bcrano

12-22-2010, 03:20 AM

That's great news. I think I'll take that route then. Is there a big difference in the Apex v. the Pro other that the better base? Worth the $ to go for the pro?

Rob Babcock

12-22-2010, 03:44 AM

That's great news. I think I'll take that route then. Is there a big difference in the Apex v. the Pro other that the better base? Worth the $ to go for the pro?

They'll do the same job. But the Pro will do it with greater speed and comfort. First off, the suction cups of the Apex work well enough but not as well as the incredibly powerful suction base of the Pro. If I stick it down to a granite reference plate I can grab the EP and lift the granite slab off the table! It absolutely doesn't budge from where you put it. It's rock solid.

Next, to change stones on the Apex you unscrew the holder via the knob on the handle. The Pro model has a spring loaded stone arm- you pull back on the stone like racking the slide of an auto pistol and pull the stone out. You can change it in two or three seconds. The Pro also has a larger, longer arm that allows more sweep. And there's a ramp on the stone arm that lets you more easily use the entire length of the stone; on the Apex there's a stop at each end.

The Pro can be adjusted for work height and angle where the Apex is fixed. The Apex also won't qo to quite as low an angle as the Pro. True, there are workarounds, though. Overall the Pro is just smoother, more solid and a bit easier to adjust. The added adjustability makes it more comfortable to work at for long periods of time. Also it's slightly easier to do large knives on it due to a combination of a more stable platform and a tad wider blade table.

A few pictures of them side by side might be helpful.

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2706/proapextogether1.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1281/proapextogether2.jpg

The Pro is considerably larger- I wish Ben Dale would show them together on the web site because it's hard to appreciate the differences when you can't see them side by side.

Having said all of that, the Apex is less than 1/2 the price. That's not a small thing. If you can afford it, I absolutely recommend you get the Professional- you will not regret it! But if you can't swing $350 for the most basic Pro kit don't think you'll be settling too much by getting the Apex. I put razor-sharp, hair-popping edges on lots of knives for a long while with the Apex before I stepped up to the Pro. Both will do an equally good job of getting a sharp edge, the Pro just makes it a bit easier, that's all.:cool:

mikemac

12-22-2010, 11:03 AM

I've sharpened freehand and with mechanical angle aid's for a number of years, and just recently added a EP Apex....if you're just starting out, etc etc - get the EP Apex. And get some felt and strop compound from Dave.

With the EP you'll be able to get all your blades up to an insane level of sharpness without having to worry about a major FUBAR. With the felt pads and Diamond spray you will be able to refine and maintain the edges plus get a feel for freehanding at an angle without having to worry about a fubar.

Fool around with that kit for a year or so, and then if you want to join the insanity of stones and freehanding...pick up a KING 1k/6k from the for sale section and try it out before getting sucked into the insanity of 'which stones'

one of the really beautiful things about the EP is that you can go from dull to HAIR POPPING in under 10 minutes, including assembly, dis-assembly and all clean up, and you don't have to worry about being in the zen of the moment....anyway, just my $0.02. Welcome to the forum

Hey guys,
I'm just about to enter the world of sharpening as my arsenal is being sent to me...I've been debating freehand - which I might want to learn at some point, but am concerned about doing it on nice knives - as I have only few... Is an EP something you would recommend? From watching the video it seems doable and if the edge getting ability is there -- is there any disadvantage other than psychic or losing cool guy points?

I would hate to get Dave to tune up a nice new knife and then F it up trying to free hand without much practice...Thanks as ever. I hope everyone gets something very sharp for the holidays!

Pensacola Tiger

12-22-2010, 11:19 AM

That's great news. I think I'll take that route then. Is there a big difference in the Apex v. the Pro other that the better base? Worth the $ to go for the pro?

If you've got an unlimited budget, then get the Pro, otherwise get the Apex and a set of Chocera or Shapton Pro stones for it.

Oh, one other thing - the Apex stores in its included case, just about the same size as an eight-knife roll - so you can easily store it between sharpening sessions. The Pro needs to have some dedicated storage space unless you intend to leave it set up permanently in case of a late night sharpening emergency.

bcrano

12-22-2010, 12:12 PM

Wow thanks Rob, Mike and PT. Those are really clear and helpful to me. I tend to look at almost any investment as life long, and hopefully that life will be long enough to amortize the cost down to pennies. Seems like the perfect tool. So I'm on board.

If I can ask another follow on -- what would be a good range of stones to have? Brands? Numbers?

THANKS SO MUCH!!!

Solstice

12-22-2010, 01:31 PM

I also just got the Edge pro Apex, I got the version with all of the EP stones, I have not upgraded to any other stones. I have been getting my friends knifes and my coworkers knifes to gain skill in the thing. I have put about 60 or so knifes through the thing and now my stones are getting a little used. How do you guys flatten the stones? Should I spend the $30 on the EP stone flattening kit or is there a cheaper/more effective way? Please advise!

Fred

12-22-2010, 02:23 PM

Flattening is not so critical with the Edgepro. The reason is that you use not only a back and forth motion but a side to side motion as well along the length of the blade and that tends to equalize things.

thombrogan

12-22-2010, 02:41 PM

Concrete block and loose sand will flatten the stones, too. Might not cost $30, but it still works. Also, if you have a flat benchstone such as a diamond plate or an India stone, it'll work.

Solstice

12-22-2010, 03:02 PM

What kind of sand? The stuff I find out in my street or a little bit finer?

LumberJ

12-22-2010, 03:27 PM

I have a large cinder block that I use for flattening. At first it put some deeper scratches in the stones but after a few flattening sessions it no longer does that. Best of all it was free(left behind by the previous owner of the house). Quick and easy only thing is you need to remember to wash it and the stone well after usage. Which is such a hassle :p

thombrogan

12-22-2010, 03:44 PM

What kind of sand? The stuff I find out in my street or a little bit finer?

Never been to your street, but, yes, nothing special.

kcma

12-22-2010, 03:58 PM

I really don't see an advantage free hand has over EP when it comes to double bevel knives.

EP has the technical advantage--

Set up and take down time are negligible--

Stones don't need to be soaked--

Of course freehand can get a knife just as sharp, and for those who view free hand as an art, and stones as a hobby, then obviously freehand is for them.

What I do disagree with is the idea that freehand offers better performance, because it doesn't--especially now considering you can get pre-cut Chosera stones (up to 10k) and the like for the EP.

That depends philosophical definition of "best". Which is different from "perfect". Funny I just watched black swan, and it's somehow relevant. Perfection is finite, once you strip away the knife, the stone, and everything else. It has little to do with sharpening. The persuit of consistent angle in the end is perfect ___ degree edge. It end up being a very finite limitation.

Granted, a perfect 8* edge will be better than 99.999% of imperfect freehand edge. But it'll never transcend into something more than 8* perfect edge.

Isn't this also the reason ppl are willing to pay so much more for a shigefusa? Precision and perfection in the end is a limitation to something greater. In practice, who needs that :p perfect ___ degree angle is a much better edge once you shed the romantic mysticism, your edge just won't be as good as mine :D and also, this never stop movie studios to form the perfect formula to crank out blockbusters. Definitely easier and less risky letting some crazy unstable directors making artistic flops.

thombrogan

12-22-2010, 04:05 PM

The thing is, that an 8° edge usually won't be perfect on a gyuto or any other knife repeatedly touching a cutting board. It might be fine for a mukimono, but won't stand up to time-efficient use. Doesn't matter whether the edge was made by hand or with outside help. The advantage offered by freehand sharpening is the unintentional, unacknowledged addition of a microbevel (or microparabolic convexing) thick enough to withstand daily use without making the sharpener have to acknowledge he or she is actually sharpening at an angle higher that the 3-4° he or she thinks is being used.

kcma

12-22-2010, 05:12 PM

8 degree is just random number I tossed out. What I meant is that in persuit of that precision. It becomes a limiting factor. Achieving that is as goo as is gets. Nothing wrong with that, but that limit can always be exceeded.

Seb

12-22-2010, 05:28 PM

LOL. That deserves to go in a fortune cookie.

Rob Babcock

12-22-2010, 06:10 PM

I flatten my stones on a DMT Dia-Sharp plate. I've got an XXC that's just for that purpose, but I also use my 2" x 6" XC & C sometimes depending on the stone I'm doing. If you want to flatten then on the cheap then put some sandpaper down on something flat (ideally something very flat like a sheet of glass, granite reference plate, etc- but a paving tile can work) and flatten on that. You can get a special stone fixer that's made for this. Edge Pro sells a silica sand for a few bucks per bag that's made for flattening on glass. Realistically you need something that's abrasive and something flat, what it is doesn't much matter. But it should be very flat.

What EP stones would I recommend? Well, I'm a bad one to ask- I have nearly everything made!:) First off, the stones Ben Dale at EP offers are very good ones. His grit rating doesn't correspond to Japanese grits that we're used to. In very rough terms his 120=320, 220=600, and the EP OEM 320 is the equivalent of a 1k. He sells a 1,000 stone that's around 4k. Above this you have to use tapes. The main virtue of the EP stones from Ben is that they're $14 each. The aftermarket stones from Jende cost more but they're also thicker. The main "core" lines Jende offers are the Naniwa Chocera and Shapton Professional lines. They also offer DMT Dia-Sharp plates mounted EP blanks, plus a few other special products (leather & balsa strops, one-of stones, etc).

Again, I have almost everything you can get for the EP but if I could only have one line I'd get the Naniwa Choceras. They cut fast, leave a superior finish and provide great "feedback" and feel. At a minimum you'll want the 1k, 5k & 10k and probably either the 2k or 3k- you don't need both. Mostly I use the 2k. It's good to also have a coarse stone, and the 400 Chocera is a superior one. The 320 Shapton Pro is also a great stone. I use a DMT XC for a lot of the heavy grinding.

Is the EP right for you? It depends on what you're looking for. Some people enjoy freehand sharpening- and I include myself in that number. The EP does lack the romantic mysticism of sitting cross legged under a cherry tree rubbing your knife on a rock. If all you want is a toast edge, and not a lot of BS, get and EP. It's not a sharpening microwave- you don't push a button and wait for it to go "DING". The guide will simply remove the errors and inaccuracies associated with trying to hold a precise angle. The beauty of the system is that once you free yourself of that limitation you're free to focus on the other aspects of sharpening, such as feeling the burr being created stroke by stroke or the very advanced process of creating an ultra-keen edge without creating a burr at all. That's virtually impossible to do freehand.

And of course a lot of us use lots of methods of sharpening. I have an EP but I also have a Gizmo, a belt sander and bench stones. Sometimes I freehand, sometimes I use the Gizmo as a Pana-Vise. Sometimes the belt sander is the best tool. One member of this forum will use an EP Apex to cut the initial bevel and then work thru the polish stones freehand. There's no one correct way to sharpen.

thombrogan

12-22-2010, 06:15 PM

What I meant is that in persuit of that precision. It becomes a limiting factor. Achieving that is as goo as is gets. Nothing wrong with that, but that limit can always be exceeded.

I know you meant it as a hypothetical, but my response is that it's not the precision that's the limiting factor, it's the use of that precision to choose the exact wrong angle (and not 0.003 degrees more) that's the problem and that the advantage of freehand slop is the higher likelihood of inadvertently throwing a thick-enough micro-bevel onto the edge for it to withstand its intended use.

GGinMP

12-22-2010, 06:20 PM

I was new to sharpening as of a couple months ago, and I LOVE my Edge Pro Apex. If I had unlimited funds then the Pro would have been even nicer, but the jump up in price was too great for me. I put that extra $ into a couple nice knives.

I bought the Apex #3 kit with 5 stones, but in retrospect I wish I would have bought the Apex with Custom Chosera Kit @ CKTG because I've heard so many good things about the Chosera. Nothing bad about the standard Edge Pro stones, though, and I'll use them until they wear out and THEN upgrade to Shapton and/or Chosera.

khman

12-22-2010, 07:54 PM

.... Edge Pro sells a silica sand for a few bucks per bag that's made for flattening on glass. Realistically you need something that's abrasive and something flat, what it is doesn't much matter. But it should be very flat.....
be aware the silica is related to industrial decease :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica

.....

Health effects

Quartz sand (silica) as main raw material for commercial glass production

Inhaling finely divided crystalline silica dust in very small quantities (OSHA allows 0.1 mg/m3) over time can lead to silicosis, bronchitis, or cancer, as the dust becomes lodged in the lungs and continuously irritates them, reducing lung capacities......

khman

12-22-2010, 08:03 PM

it seems the users of EP are grinding or honing "dry" , i means sharpening by EP without adding lubricant (water or oil .... ) .

i got some questions in mind :

what is the point of using lubricant (water or oil ...) on the EP stone or tape ?

is that the slurry does not need anymore for EP sharpening ?

Pensacola Tiger

12-22-2010, 08:27 PM

it seems the users of EP are grinding or honing "dry" , i means sharpening by EP without adding lubricant (water or oil .... ) .

You're laboring under a misconception. If you watch the Edge Pro videos, you'll see that there's plenty of water used during sharpening. I soak the Chocera stones and then frequently wet down both the Chocera and Shapton Pro stones while using them with a spray bottle.

i got some questions in mind :

what is the point of using lubricant (water or oil ...) on the EP stone or tape ?

is that the slurry does not need anymore for EP sharpening ?

I don't use tapes, so I can't say anything about tapes and lubricant. I do know that I work up mud while sharpening, a pretty thick mud, similar in consistency to that raised on a Japanese natural stone, and I leave it on the stone while sharpening. Seems to work a bit better that way.

kcma

12-22-2010, 08:35 PM

I know you meant it as a hypothetical, but my response is that it's not the precision that's the limiting factor, it's the use of that precision to choose the exact wrong angle (and not 0.003 degrees more) that's the problem and that the advantage of freehand slop is the higher likelihood of inadvertently throwing a thick-enough micro-bevel onto the edge for it to withstand its intended use.

i know that's what you meant, and what i meant is even if you are able to determine that ___ angle is perfect for specific knife for specific task. and micro bevel of _____ size is added at _____ degree. they're still limitation because by persuing that, you won't exceed it. that's all, i'm not a fan of seeking perfection, and the random sloppy things that happen always turn out better than things that are perfect and exact. i mean, i'm sure you'd pick your random and temperamental wife over the perfect and predictable woman :p actually don't answer that..

khman

12-22-2010, 08:36 PM

You're laboring under a misconception. If you watch the Edge Pro videos, you'll see that there's plenty of water used during sharpening. I soak the Chocera stones and then frequently wet down both the Chocera and Shapton Pro stones while using them with a spray bottle.

Thank You for correcting my misconception :o

I don't use tapes, so I can't say anything about tapes and lubricant. I do know that I work up mud while sharpening, a pretty thick mud, similar in consistency to that raised on a Japanese natural stone, and I leave it on the stone while sharpening. Seems to work a bit better that way.
so , probably "dry" sharpening on EP is uncommon .:rolleyes:

boar_d_laze

12-22-2010, 09:18 PM

There's little or no point to lubricating in order to reduce friction while sharpening. In fact, the activities are antithetical. Liquids-- including water, soap, and sometimes oil -- may be used on "oil stones" to float the swarf and prevent clogging; and water is used on "water stones" to help break down the binder, release the abrasive, and form a sharpening "slurry" (aka "mud"); as well as to rinse the swarf off the stone.

Hope this helps,
BDL

Pensacola Tiger

12-22-2010, 09:30 PM

Thank You for correcting my misconception :o

so , probably "dry" sharpening on EP is uncommon .:rolleyes:

At least in my limited experience. I defer to any other EP users who may or may not.

Rob Babcock

12-22-2010, 09:41 PM

be aware the silica is related to industrial decease :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica

.....

Health effects

Quartz sand (silica) as main raw material for commercial glass production

Inhaling finely divided crystalline silica dust in very small quantities (OSHA allows 0.1 mg/m3) over time can lead to silicosis, bronchitis, or cancer, as the dust becomes lodged in the lungs and continuously irritates them, reducing lung capacities......

Wow, good to know. Sounds like you'd want to wear a respirator. I guess it's best that I use the DMT! Thanks for the heads up!

Rob Babcock

12-22-2010, 09:44 PM

GGinMP

12-22-2010, 11:02 PM

I certainly use water on my Edge Pro stones. The coarse stones soak up a pretty good amount, while the finer stones only require a little bit of water.

thombrogan

12-23-2010, 12:01 AM

I use water or water and baking soda on lapping films on the tape blank (and on my HandAmerican flatbed hone) to prevent them from loading.

Ardni

12-23-2010, 05:03 AM

The stones should all be used wet. The tapes not so much. In my experience they want to float off the blank if you use much water. I rarely use EP tapes, but I do have four or five glass blanks that I use my own PSA on. Again, even that isn't something I do much after getting the "Full Monty" of stones & stuff.

Hi Rob, Since you mention about getting the full monty of ep stuff. How are the leather strops for the ep? Do they help achieve getting a microbevel without going to the meditative space of free hand?

Cheers,
Darin

Rob Babcock

12-23-2010, 05:45 AM

Yeah, the strop works well. I have a custom cut HA on a 2" x 6" blank. I've been charging it with 1/8 micron CBN to great effect. IIRC mine is horse butt (the strop, although I could lay off the carbs a bit).

khman

12-23-2010, 07:02 AM

thanks for the responses on the idea of lubricant ~

using lubricant or not , i think the best result can only be concluded after trying dry and wet or oily grinding .....

on my early day , i believe the lubricant can enhance the sharpness , just like applying less force steadily , so the new scratch pattern become more fine .
but we all know this approach for sharpness is not efficiency than simply changing the stone to higher grit# .
so , i gave up this idea .

agree with BDL , one of the main function of lubricant is to deal with the abrasive dust and metal swarf.

but in most power grinder wheel , or belt , the lubricant seems not really necessary any more ......

in the case of EP , it has the DNA of a machine ,
so , using lubricant or not ? i think both ways are reasonable .
it may worth to test out the dry way and make it as a choice for sharpening .

i don't have the EP . i play with some cheap stones , they gave me a very good lesson on the idea of dry honing , a good lesson of dusty approach .

thombrogan

12-23-2010, 08:09 AM

IIRC mine is horse butt (the strop, although I could lay off the carbs a bit).

Nothing to worry about until 1-2-11 (or 2-1-11 for our European friends) unless it becomes a split bovine.

Bob_McBob

02-04-2011, 01:00 AM

I ordered the Edge Pro Apex with custom Choseras from CKTG earlier this week, and I'm expecting it to arrive next week. I don't really mind freehanding, but it's not something I especially enjoy like some forum members. I'm also the only person in my family who is willing to learn how to sharpen knives properly, so I end up maintaining everyone's knives, which gets a little tedious.

I'm wondering how I should treat 70/30 bevels on the EP. When freehanding the general advice seems to be to just sharpen a bit more on the one side. With the EP where you can set angles more precisely, you can either sharpen evenly at different angles, or sharpen more on one side and push the centre slightly to one side

thombrogan

02-04-2011, 08:36 AM

Whichever way makes you feel more comfortable is the right way. For ease of chasing burrs, doing 3 sets of strokes on one side for every 7 sets done on the other side would let you only have to worry about pressure and even contact versus resetting the angle every time you switch sides.

mikemac

02-04-2011, 11:13 AM

Pensacola Tiger

02-04-2011, 12:51 PM

I've freehanded for years and recently picked up an EP for similiar reasons...you know - the household beater just needs to be sharp, and the difference between finishing with 0.5 micron at 12* and .25 micron at 14* is lost on PB&J....

The whole 70/30 thing always makes me ask myself if this is the way the blade was forged (i.e. from spine to edge) or the way the blade was sharpened (that last 1mm). What I continue to do as I fool with and get comfortable with the EP is use the magic marker.

BTW - I've also found that putting blue painters tape on the knife does a much better job of protecing against scratches than just putting tape on the EP bed.

+1 on the Magic Marker method.

Taping the knife is always a good idea, because it's the grit in the swarf that gets into the tape on the EP bed that causes scratches. Flushing the bed with water helps, but doesn't solve the problem. Smooth surface duct tape works better that painter's tape, though.

IIRC, someone even went so far as to modify a brass cartridge case to use when trimming the tape on the knife - brass won't scratch the steel.

Fred

02-04-2011, 02:33 PM

Bob_McBob

02-10-2011, 05:03 AM

I received my EP on Monday and have done a few sessions with it. I first sharpened all my smaller and cheaper knives, then a sujihiki, and finally a Tojiro DP gyuto I recently purchased for sharpening practice. I've only used the EP 220, and 400 and 1k Choseras so far. I'll work my way up to the higher Choseras once I'm confident with my technique. I've been starting with the 220 to make sure I have a nice clean bevel on the knife for future sharpening. I assume it's okay to start with the 400 Chosera in the future.

I'm really impressed by how easy it is to cut a nice clean bevel and sharpen up any knife. I can honestly say it's the first time I've ever looked forward to the next sharpening session. I'll be sticking to the Tojiro until I've got the hang of taping knives to avoid scratches and being more consistent about even sharpening.

I've tried to follow the original bevels for the most part, ignoring the actual markings on the EP. For the Tojiro, the 10 degree marker ended up being just about perfect. The original bevel was "smooth" but incredibly uneven, so it took a lot of work with the 220 to actually hit the edge all along the blade. There is a small portion about 1cm from the tip that was so hollow it's started to beak very slightly. What's the best way to deal with this?

I have a hard time feeling a burr with any of the stones, so I probably tend to sharpen more than is necessary. I basically just sharpen until it seems about right, do a few passes of light strokes on either side, then wash, dry and finish with a few passes on each side with a hard felt pad. Does this seem reasonable, or should I modify my technique?

One thing that bugs me is that the the front legs tend to move around a little on my granite counter as I press down with the stone on the forward cut. It has the effect of making the whole thing feel very unstable and making it difficult to hold the knife against the blade table and maintain a consistent angle.

The instructions and Youtube videos say to set the guide by placing the tip of the knife in the corner of the blade table, then push up the handle and pivot around the tip until the edge meets the other corner. This means the thick section of the blade sticks over the edge of the blade road pretty far, but the tip is right at the edge when you sharpen it. Is this how everyone else sets the guide?

How often should I be flattening the stones? I know they don't get evenly worn because it's difficult to sharpen to the limit of both ends and not constantly hit the blade edge with the guard. It doesn't seem prudent to regularly flatten such thin stones, and dishing is less of an issue because they're moved from side to side.

Pensacola Tiger

02-10-2011, 08:50 AM

One thing that bugs me is that the the front legs tend to move around a little on my granite counter as I press down with the stone on the forward cut. It has the effect of making the whole thing feel very unstable and making it difficult to hold the knife against the blade table and maintain a consistent angle.

I think you may be using way too much pressure. If you review the DVD and YouTube videos that Ben Dale made, it is suggested that you let the weight of the stone and arm do the work, while you exert little or no downward force.

The instructions and Youtube videos say to set the guide by placing the tip of the knife in the corner of the blade table, then push up the handle and pivot around the tip until the edge meets the other corner. This means the thick section of the blade sticks over the edge of the blade road pretty far, but the tip is right at the edge when you sharpen it. Is this how everyone else sets the guide?

Yes it's how I do it.

mikemac

02-10-2011, 11:20 AM

Especially with the 220 and 400 you should feel a burr before moving on to the alternative side of the blade or the next stone in the progression....although I usually have to rinse the knife first. I think when we freehand we tend to keep rinsing and feeling for the burr an part of the rhythm, and wehen we go to the EP, it sort of disrupts that flow. If you've worked on the Tojiro at the 10 degree mark, and don;t feel as though you've raised a burr...go back to the EP, and take the angle a bit higher for now...maybe another 1/4" above the black mark.

From a 'logic' standpoint, failure to raise a burr, and then flipping from side to side will lead to a wire edge.

...I have a hard time feeling a burr with any of the stones, so I probably tend to sharpen more than is necessary. I basically just sharpen until it seems about right, do a few passes of light strokes on either side, then wash, dry and finish with a few passes on each side with a hard felt pad. Does this seem reasonable, or should I modify my technique?...

kcma

02-10-2011, 12:08 PM

If you have a hard time feeling burr. You didn't sharpen it enough. Burr is easily felt, so sharpen more. Think orgasm... If you aren't sure you had one.. You haven't ;)

ksskss

02-12-2011, 03:10 PM

I prefer delayed orgasm. One big one rather than a bunch of little ones, LOL. Too much deburring results in hairy palms. Well, not a perfect analogy. Minimum burr formation is the way to go.

Bob, asymmetric grinds on the EP is easy. Don't worry about different angles on both sides, just the amount of time grinding on each side. Two different angles on each side is just silly.

As you develop more skill, you can learn to feel for a sudden increase in sharpness that occurs just before burr formation. That's when the two sides meet. Time to do the other side or move on to a finer grit.

---
Ken

JBroida

02-12-2011, 04:23 PM

Bob, asymmetric grinds on the EP is easy. Don't worry about different angles on both sides, just the amount of time grinding on each side. Two different angles on each side is just silly.

This kind of sharpening has potential to cause serious problems if left unchecked. It moves the edge from under the center of the knife to either the right or left. On clad knives, i've seen this done to such a degree where the cladding becomes the cutting edge. On single steel knives, as the edge moves further away from the center, it becomes slightly weaker. Not saying you cant sharpen this way, but just something to be aware of as you do it. Over time, if you dont pay attention, this can cause trouble.

ksskss

02-12-2011, 05:13 PM

Jon,

I respectively have to disagree with you on this one. It's basic geometry. Somehow it seems to be one of the hardest concepts to get people to understand yet it is so basic. Grinding on one side or the other does shift the center line of the edge relative to the spine. You want to optimize this to your knife so that it is properly placed - or to your tastes. The bevel angles being more or less acute are a separate variable. I've explained this in the past in more detail, yet people continue to mystify the topic. You can have asymmetric bevel angles too, but the grind ratios and the bevel angles are two variables.

Where we do agree is in optimizing the edge so that it is in the proper place - not the cladding but respecting the overall geometry of the knife.

---
Ken

kcma

02-12-2011, 05:15 PM

None of my gyutos are centered :p

JBroida

02-12-2011, 05:18 PM

Ken-
In the quote about this one, you suggest not changing angles on each side, but just grinding more one one side than the other. This is what i was referring to. Not changing angles AND amount of grinding. Grinding more on one side than the other, keeping the angles the same, does shift the edge to the side (either right or left depending).

-Jon

Jon,

I respectively have to disagree with you on this one. It's basic geometry. Somehow it seems to be one of the hardest concepts to get people to understand yet it is so basic. Grinding on one side or the other does shift the center line of the edge relative to the spine. You want to optimize this to your knife so that it is properly placed - or to your tastes. The bevel angles being more or less acute are a separate variable. I've explained this in the past in more detail, yet people continue to mystify the topic. You can have asymmetric bevel angles too, but the grind ratios and the bevel angles are two variables.

Where we do agree is in optimizing the edge so that it is in the proper place - not the cladding but respecting the overall geometry of the knife.

---
Ken

ksskss

02-12-2011, 05:24 PM

None of my gyutos are centered :p

Or clad if I remember right, which makes some sense. It works for you and that's fine with me. Part of the joy of owning a knife is doing it how you like to do it.

---
Ken

ksskss

02-12-2011, 05:38 PM

Jon,

Not exactly. If the knife is already let's say 70/30, to keep it at that ratio you grind 7x on one side and 3x on the other. Not a blind formula but guided by skill and results. If I grind more on the 30 side it shifts it to one side and so on. I think we are saying the same thing and unlike KC both wind up in the same place - respecting the knife's asymmetry. I am saying that this can be done on an EP easily and doesn't require grinding at two different angles for the two sides. Like two variables in a simple equation (eg a+b=z) where increasing either has a similar result.

---
Ken

khman

02-12-2011, 09:46 PM

This kind of sharpening has potential to cause serious problems if left unchecked. It moves the edge from under the center of the knife to either the right or left. On clad knives, i've seen this done to such a degree where the cladding becomes the cutting edge. ....
for the cladding knife , i agree the center of the knife is stronger .
because i believe that the layers (the layers on both left and right sides of hagane) between hagane and jigane will allow tiny amount of decarbonization .

for non-cladding knife , i don't see any reason for the center of the knife edge being stronger than either sides of the knife .
as all we know , the single bevel knife is using the left side of the blade as its cutting edge instead of the center of the blade .
therefore , we believe that either sides of the non-cladding blade should not be weaker than the center of the blade .

JBroida

02-12-2011, 10:54 PM

for the cladding knife , i agree the center of the knife is stronger .
because i believe that the layers (the layers on both left and right sides of hagane) between hagane and jigane will allow tiny amount of decarbonization .

for non-cladding knife , i don't see any reason for the center of the knife edge being stronger than either sides of the knife .
as all we know , the single bevel knife is using the left side of the blade as its cutting edge instead of the center of the blade .
therefore , we believe that either sides of the non-cladding blade should not be weaker than the center of the blade .

yeah... i agree with that. I was talking about the dangers of doing it on a clad knife

khman

02-12-2011, 11:22 PM

yeah... i agree with that. I was talking about the dangers of doing it on a clad knife
but you also added that for the single steel knives :

On single steel knives, as the edge moves further away from the center, it becomes slightly weaker. Not saying you cant sharpen this way, but just something to be aware of as you do it. Over time, if you dont pay attention, this can cause trouble.
please help me to figure out the reason for the single steel knives being weaker when the edge move further away from the center ?:confused:

JBroida

02-12-2011, 11:57 PM

but you also added that for the single steel knives :

please help me to figure out the reason for the single steel knives being weaker when the edge move further away from the center ?:confused:

yeah... this is also true... give it a shot and test for yourself. Here's a prime example... take a suisin ginsanko momiji and compare it to a gyuto of equivalent thickness. Do both to the same included angle and see which is the stronger edge. Or sharpen two gyutos to the same included degree angle and have one be extremely asymmetrical... there is less steel directly behind the edge as you become more asymmetrical (in terms of shifting the asymmetry through amount of grinding... not talking about when angles change. Its not really always a huge problem, because most people just adjust when they see their edges failing too quickly for their liking.

I'm pretty sure KC can attest to this... his knives' edges fail more quickly in the hands of less experienced people.... but then again, the other people using his knives might just have crap knife skills ;)

kcma

02-13-2011, 12:36 AM

Oh yeh. Massive fail ;p it really requires a different cutting technique entirely.

khman

02-13-2011, 01:01 AM

yeah... this is also true... give it a shot and test for yourself. Here's a prime example... take a suisin ginsanko momiji and compare it to a gyuto of equivalent thickness. Do both to the same included angle and see which is the stronger edge. Or sharpen two gyutos to the same included degree angle and have one be extremely asymmetrical... there is less steel directly behind the edge as you become more asymmetrical (in terms of shifting the asymmetry through amount of grinding... not talking about when angles change. Its not really always a huge problem, because most people just adjust when they see their edges failing too quickly for their liking.

I'm pretty sure KC can attest to this... his knives' edges fail more quickly in the hands of less experienced people.... but then again, the other people using his knives might just have crap knife skills ;)
oic ~
Thank You ! :)