Takefu wa-gyuto, Suisin Funayuki and Shun deba...

[Oded]

As you might know, I fond of unusual knives and partial toward Japanese traditional construction.
So when I last visited JKC in order to finally use my old credit there, it is a little wonder I have ended up with the strangest wa-gyuto I have ever seen.
Other then its name, Takefu, and the length (210mm) I know very little about this knife. It is definitely carbon steel (it stains!), came wickedly sharp out of the box and that's about it... I got is because it was the only wa-gyuto they had and being a bit of an odd ball only made it more attractive in my eyes.
The knife is heavy, almost as heavy as the longer 9" Wusthof. It is extremely blade heavy for such a size, about 40mm in frin if the heel. No doubt, this in part due to the handle which rather small and short, D shaped, wooden thing - probably Maccasar Ebony but not sure - it is lighter and leaning more to the brown then most Maccasar Ebony I have seen but is not out of the natural variation for the species.
The handle hardly tapers - maybe 2mm difference front to end. Another odd thing - the ferrule does not look like horn and resembles the Shun's Paka wood more then everything else but I cannot imagine anyone making a ferrule from that – or am I wrong?
There is a hidden copper coloured metal ferrule inside the external blackish ferrule and between that ferrule and the blade there is a filling of some light coloured material. Did I say odd...???
The blade is as odd as the handle. Looking carefully, one can see that it is a layered construction. Contrary to other Suminagashi knives where the layers alternate between two types of steel and the blade is etched with acid in order to expose the layers, the layers are hardly visible and appear to be from one type of metal. They also appear to be the metal used for the core - the blade is bright throughout its width.
Having made gyoza for dinner was a good chance to compare this knife with the similar sized Shun ai-deba and the Suisin funayuki deba. Just see the sacrifice I make for the sake of science - I had to wash three knives instead on one...
The Shun is a heavy thing, weighting, at 210mm more then the 25mm Wusthof. It is also, even after sharpening, not as sharp as the other two carbon steel knives though it is definitely sharper now then when new. Whether that's down to my sharpening skills or down to the differences between steel types I cannot say. The shun is the toughest of the three and inspiring more confident for those big jobs such as halving a pineapple, or in this case, a cabbage.
The first task was very fine shredded cabbage, and the finer the better. The funayuki, weighting just slightly more then a typical gyuto together with its extreme sharpness and single bevel construction was a clear winner. It was followed by the Takefu but being a double, convex bevelled, it was just not as good. Also, as this task was somewhere between slicing and chopping, the weight and balance of the Takefu contributing to it being less suitable. The Shun, being the heaviest (though better balanced then the Takefo - only about 20mm in front of the bolster) and less sharp then the other came third.
Finely chopping spring onions and julienning ginger, I came with same results: Suisin, then Takefu and then Shun. However, in two handed fine dicing of the ginger (and garlic) where the left hand is supporting the spine of the knife and the right handed is rocking the knife up and down the order was different. Here the Takefu came first, Having just the right weight to task combined with its extreme sharpness and curvier belly, especially toward the back of the blade, made it the perfect knife for the job. The shun was also able to put its weight to a good use here while the funauki, being lighter and almost flat in the last third of the blade did not fare as good in this task. It also feels the most delicate of the three so I just did not feel as confident in a task that involves continuously hitting the board.

I have tried to make a comparative picture of the three but realised I need day light for that. Under the artifical light everything gets awfully yellow with reflections that are impossible to control (without a tent).
I will post the pics including the requested close up of my Watanabe tomorrow.

[Fred]

I would think the deba would be bad at all those things, nor is it designed to be good at them. I think the sharpness issue deals with the thickness of the deba and its role in beheading fish which motivates a more obtuse bevel. You likely improved the polish on the edge and improved its performance that way.

I'm not sure how you define funyaki. It sounds like it is a deba to you. To me it is basically a santoku with a more angular nose. Perhaps you have a deba with that kind of nose. If so then it is a suprise that it chopped anything better than the wa gyuto.

I look forward to the images.

[Oded]

My Funayuki is a deba according to Suisin - I wrote about it some time ago. I think you even saw the picture and identified it as deba yourself. In fact, the blade shape is exactly like a mioroshi deba.
In general, Funayuki seems to means different things to different people. Murray Carter uses the terms in a similar way to you I think.

You have to remember that both this Suisin and Shun are rather different from normal debas with blade thickness of up to 3mm, contrary to the 10mm of a classic deba. As such, they are placed closer, in my opinion, to a gyuto anyway.
O the other hand, my only wa gyuto is way heavier and more blade heavy then other gytuos. It weights in the region of a similar size German knife.

You also have to note that in all these tasks single bevel was either an advantage (as in shredding the cabbage) or insignificant (as in chopping spring onions)

I do prefer the wa-gyuto when it comes to potatoes for instance, where the single bevel tendency to rotate is difficult to control

[mrsadm]

Pictures would sure be nice ...

What are the strengths of a Deba type knife? I have read they are good for "chopping fish and vegetables" but that could describe many types of knives.

[Oded]

You are correct when it comes to the traditional, 10mm thick debas.
The thinner blade, and least in my understanding and interpretation, are more general purpose chopping knives and provide a viable alternative to gyutos.
From the experience I have with my knives there two main points where they differ from a gyuto:
- Single bevel which can be an advantage or disadvantage - depends on the task, cutting techniques and personal preferences.
- A flatter belly in the back third of the blade, again affecting task suitability and cutting techniques.

So when it comes to thin blade deba (my Suisin is 3mm at the heel) VS a gyuto, both will have strength and weaknesses in different kitchen chores.

[Oded]

Pictures as promised...

Left to right:
Takefu Wa Gyuto
Suisin Funayuki Deba
Shun Ai Deba



And abother...



Last one...

[Fred]

Yes, I do remember these, Oded. The "funyaki deba" definitely has a deba profile and not a funyaki one. I assume they called it funyaki because it is thinner than a deba and more suited to chopping like a funyaki is. That's fairly wild guess work since my Japanese is somewhere around zero.

[Oded]

You got a point there.
I never asked what's the exact meaning of the word. I guess now is as good time as ever...

[Oded]

... and here is the explanation:

Yes! As for the meaning of Funayuki, there are two theories.
1.It is because the form of it is seen like a ship.[reverse-edge?]
2.The kitchen knife that a fisherman used on a ship.
[ This kitchen knife is a fisherman exclusive use form. ]

*Japanses Word*
Funa meaning Ship! Yuki meaning Go!

[TATATA]

FunayukiDeba is special Deba.
As for Deba, there are a lot of kinds.
HonDeba, AiDeba, MioroshiDeba, HyouguDeba,FunayukiDeba....
HonDeba is a very thick heavy kitchen knife.
AiDeba is thinner lighter than Hondeba.
As for the present AiDeba is a mainstream.If you say Deba AiDeba is meant.
MioroshiDeba is the fusion of Deba and Yanagiba.
It is one kitchen knife and able to do various cooking.
It is the almighty kitchen knife of Deba.
But,it is thin you are unable to strike it.

HyouguDeba is Deba that makes Hyougu.
Do you know Hyougu?
http://www.pluto.dti.ne.jp/~fun/hyogukan/byoubu139.jpg
It is a traditional object of industrial art.

FunayukiDeba is fisherman exclusive use kitchen knife.
It uses it even when cut the rope and also the net is repaired.But,It is an old conversation.
Now, the stainless steel knife is being used.
It is an historic kitchen knife.
Fishermen do even cooking with FunayukiDeab.
This is the almighty kitchen knife of a fisherman.

I am receiving a new kitchen knife order from the fisherman now.It is Makiri.
I want to attach the photograph of it.
I do not understand the method.....