Newbie first post! Global or Shun? Sharpening steel?

[dglevy]

Gosh, this is a great forum! I got here after reading the New Yorker article about Bob Kramer* and then, by chance, meeting a writer from Cook's Illustrated who recommended the site.

I'm not much of a cook (typical bachelor), but I love sharp knives! I've been salivating over many of the knives mentioned in these forums but am going to (try to) be restrained in what I buy. After all, unless I suddenly change my cooking habits thanks to new, sharp knives, my purchases will only be used for cutting fruits and carrots. On occasion, I plan to bring the knives to friends' houses when we cook together. (I'm a great prep cook, lousy chef...). So, those are my current plans, at least.

Here are my questions:

1. I'm looking at a Shun Classic 6" utility knife ($75) vs. a Global 4 1/4" utility knife ($46). Any comments on one vs the other? (The differences in length are not an issue for me.)
2. Does it matter which sharpening steel I buy? They are not cheap! I've seen comments elsewhere in the forum that one doesn't even need a steel, one can just use a pot lid or ceramic plate.

Read on, if you want more details:
It's been a long, exciting journey of discovery for me, these past few weeks. At the start, I didn't even know what a sharpening steel was for, so I had a lot to learn. I've read a lot and have been weighing the pros and cons of carbon vs stainless and am ultimately probably going to own both. I've looked at--and lusted after--various knives recommended here: Tojiro, Masamoto, Suisin, Misono, etc., but the pricing was either prohibitive or similar to Shun/Global and they were not available locally for sharpness testing. (I found the thread discussing cheap carbon knives particularly helpful for what will probably be my next purchase. I'm also thinking about ultimately investing in some good sharpening stones and using them not only for my knives but for those of friends and acquaintances as well.)

The reason I've opted for the Global/Shun first purchase is sharpness and price. Obviously, the Global is a lot cheaper than the Shun, so that is my preference, but I wanted to post here just in case there was there was something I was not aware of. I've tested both knives in stores and found them to be about the same in terms of sharpness.**

Regarding a sharpening steel, I don't really "get it" yet. I've seen posts saying that a pot lid or ceramic would do just as well as a steel. So why should I pay, say, $50 for a Shun steel instead of, say, $35 for a Henckel?

Thanks to all who can give an informed, thoughtful response to my questions. As I said, this forum is just great and I look forward to learning more from it.

David Levy
Washington, DC

*Key moment #1: When I came across the New Yorker article and thought, "Holy cr@p, this article is exactly what I've been curious about for years!"
**I tested them by shaving hair off my forearm and cutting cleanly through a wad of newspaper 56 sheets thick (28 pages folded over, cutting through the fold). For knives costing up to $75, only the Shun and Global were capable of passing these tests, in the two stores I visited. Key moment #2: When I walked into that 1st store and tested the Shun knife on my arm and it was literally as sharp as a razor. I thought, "This is incredible, the article was right! I had no idea knives could be this sharp!" (Needless to say, the salesman was not pleased to see me shaving my forearm with his demo knife. I was more discreet in the 2nd store...)

[richinva]

...... I've looked at--and lusted after--various knives recommended here: Tojiro, Masamoto, Suisin, Misono, etc., but the pricing was either prohibitive or similar to Shun/Global and they were not available locally for sharpness testing......

I don't have many good knives, but I do own a Tojiro DP 240 gyuto and a Shun parer. The Shun was really, really sharp and is a nice knife. It is in no way in the same league as sharpness goes to the Tojiro. Out of the box, the Tojiro was THE sharpest knife I've ever fondled. If at all possible, don't buy junk (not inferring that what you described is junk, just a generic statement). Wait until you have enough coin to get something good. You won't regret it. The Tojiro is less than $100.

Just my $.02.

Rich

[Mingooch]

IMHO, you can do better than either. A great starter is the Tojiro. Most here seem to put them ahead of either shun or global. Sharpening steel wise, would not even bother to get one. Get some stones or a leather strop and you most likely will be better off.
I know when I was "new" I bought a nice MAC ceramic steel. Since I bought my stones, it sits in my drawer, in the back, never used.
As far as other options, if you give a total spending limit, many here that know more than I do can make some great suggestions. Then, like me, you can be addicted. In a year and a half I went from newbie to ordering custom Hiro Itou wa gyutos. (cant wait for that knife to come in)

[expatCanuck]

...

1. I'm looking at a Shun Classic 6" utility knife ($75) vs. a Global 4 1/4" utility knife ($46). Any comments on one vs the other? (The differences in length are not an issue for me.)

Hi David -

Welcome to the forum.
For $75 ($73 delivered), as an intro to Japanese steel, I'd buy a 150mm JCK Kagayaki VG10 Petty.
Or perhaps for $81 delivered, a 180mm JCK Kagayaki Basic gyuto.
Just my opinion -- there are many valid options at the $75 price point.

...

1. Does it matter which sharpening steel I buy? They are not cheap! I've seen comments elsewhere in the forum that one doesn't even need a steel, one can just use a pot lid or ceramic plate.

Ummmm. No. No no no no no no.
Sharpening steels are not for use with Japanese knives.
And I wouldn't recommend spending money on a ceramic rod either.

Buy a 500 Beston stone (coarse) and a 1000 or 1200 Bester Stone (Medium).
Check the online videos, or buy Dave Martell's video (DRSharpening.com) or the Korin video and learn about stones & how to use them.
(And you don't need a stone holder -- a wet towel works fine (better, I think.)

IMHO, the ability to use stones properly (and I'm getting there, slowly) is as important to benefiting from Japanese steel as the blades are themselves.
That's not to say that I wasn't amazed at the difference between Japanese and German blades out of the box. I was.
But proper sharpening technique makes what's good even better.

- Richard

[FryBoy]

You might be happier with this:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shlehasakn7.html

[expatCanuck]

You might be happier with this:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shlehasakn7.html

Is David (the OP) a southpaw? You've linked to a left-handed knife.

FWIW, my second Japanese knife was a Santoku, and I use it the least.
I've found that the wide blade hinders more than it helps.

- Richard

[FryBoy]

Is David (the OP) a southpaw? You've linked to a left-handed knife.

FWIW, my second Japanese knife was a Santoku, and I use it the least.
I've found that the wide blade hinders more than it helps.

- Richard

Stupid Google!

Here's the right-handed version, same price:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kesa6.html

[mongatu]

IMHO, you can do better than either. A great starter is the Tojiro. Most here seem to put them ahead of either shun or global. Sharpening steel wise, would not even bother to get one. Get some stones or a leather strop and you most likely will be better off.
. . . .

+1

and spend some time reading about and practicing how to sharpen with the stones. It's not very hard, imo, to learn to create edges that are much sharper than OOTB factory edges. And with J. knives, how sharp they are OOTB, is not very important, although it's nice when they come super sharp. But most people adjust the edges to suit their cutting style and intended uses for their knives anyway.

[boar_d_laze]

The little Shun and little Global you're interested in are decent knives as far as that goes. There are much better for the same price, but there's nothing particularly horrible about either one. Get into chef's knive, different story.

If you're making your first step into a quality knife, you're far better off buying a gyuto/chef's than a little "utility" knife. If you intend to use a "utility" as your go-to for everything, that also change -- at least if you want to develop productive knife skills. If you're worried that a big knife -- in the 10" range -- will be difficult to control, it does take some practice.

Finally, without recommending any specific stone, I urge you to consider the whole sharpening issue before going any farther.

No matter what other qualities a knife has, no knive is better than its edge. All knives get dull. Some of them take longer than others, but they all get dull -- and pretty quickly too if you use them much. The idea that having your knives sharpened professionally once a year, and using a steel between sharpening is enough is, to put it bluntly, wrong.

Any knife with fairly symmetric edge geometry, that isn't too "hard," can be profitably maintained on a rod hone (aka steel). The Global and Shun certainly can; as can just about any Japanese knife whose C hardness is 61 or less, and is no more asymmetric than 66/33.

There are some very good, relatively inexpensive steels. I particularly like the Idahone fine Ceramic, and have been hearing good things about the DMT CS2 -- which is also ceramic, an even finer grit, almost as inexpensive, theoretically "unbreakable," but needs a little work "ootb."

IMO, the Beston 500 is a terrible choice as a stand-alone stone. There are dozens of rocks which would make a better first choice for a beginner who chooses bench stones as the sharpening method.

BDL

[dglevy]

hi all,

thanks for the many thoughtful comments!

i'm going to set aside, for the moment, the question of how to sharpen the d@mn thing once i get it. i'm having a hard enough time trying to decide what knife i want to sharpen first! i was all set on buying the global, now you all have got me second guessing myself...

i'm pretty much set on getting a utility knife. i have a chef's knife and a santoku. i use them on occasion. maybe i would use a big knife more often if it was razor sharp. but that's a step for the future. there's no harm in starting out small and working up to the bigger (and more expensive) stuff, i think.

The little Shun and little Global you're interested in are decent knives as far as that goes. There are much better for the same price, but there's nothing particularly horrible about either one.

so far, i've gotten only one approval of Shun/Global and one "they're not absolutely atrocious". not exactly a ringing endorsement... so, let's look at the alternatives i've heard about so far.

IMHO, you can do better than either. A great starter is the Tojiro. Most here seem to put them ahead of either Shun or Global.<snip>

+1

<snip> And with J. knives, how sharp they are OOTB, is not very important, although it's nice when they come super sharp. But most people adjust the edges to suit their cutting style and intended uses for their knives anyway.

I don't have many good knives, but I do own a Tojiro DP 240 gyuto and a Shun parer. The Shun was really, really sharp and is a nice knife. It is in no way in the same league as sharpness goes to the Tojiro. Out of the box, the Tojiro was THE sharpest knife I've ever fondled. <snip>

i currently have ZERO skill as a knife sharpener, and i'd rather not wait to have that skill before i own a knife that i can shave with -- that's the level of sharpness i want. besides, no one has spoken out yet against Tojiro.

thus far, three people have recommended a Tojiro, one person recommended a JCK Kagayaki and one person, a Shun.

needless to say, i'm very intrigued by this Tojiro recommendation. is it possible that a Tojiro out of the box (OOTB) could be even sharper than the Shun and Global that i tested??? i can imagine it, although i haven't actually witnessed it yet. a sharpener's video mentions the differences in the quality of the cut through a wad of newspaper. so i suppose it's possible.

so, my questions for the mavens:

1. is there a significant difference in sharpness OOTB between, say, a Tojiro and a Shun/Global? (i'm trying to keep the cost below $75.)
2. will i be able to keep a knife at that level of sharpness without having to spend days (i.e. more than, say, 4 hours) practicing my sharpening skills?

as always, your thoughtful, well informed opinions are most appreciated. i'm so excited about this purchase i want the knife NOW. but i'm holding off b/c it's a lot of money (on my budget) for a little knife and i want it to be a careful choice.

--david