Why is there so much neg about Shun Pro?

[akilia]

Whether I'm correct or not, I doubt that the relative thinness was a conscious design choice on the part of the designers as much as one driven by the fact that they elected to put a double bevel edge on the blade as a concession to the general western consumer who wouldn't know what to do with an actual single bevel edge. As a result, they thinned the blade profile to provide the appearance of a single bevel edge which would still allow for a double bevel edge to be applied at an angle which would be suitable for use as a slicer. Perhaps one might refer to this more appropriately as a "sujinagi" (tongue firmly in cheek )???

Like I said in my original post, with the Shun yanagi, you either have to live with the strange East meets West compromises or get out the diamond stones and put in some serious work to alter the blade. I killed one diamond stone in the process of altering the blade. I'm much happier with the knife after reworking the blade, but I definitely wouldn't do it again. It was certainly a valuable lesson in endurance, patience, sharpening, flattening, polishing, and the pitfalls of buying a knife unseen.

Miles, your summary is a extremely interesting experience, thank you for the details. I was deeply shocked to hear that the Shun Pro Yanagiba knife seems to be double-bevelled, since the manufacturer's statements and retailers' comments all explicitly specify it is a single-edged single-bevel knife.
At first I wondered and then dismissed the idea that you meant compound-bevelled.

Then I wonder, how exactly is the double bevel configured? A back-bevel?
I would be gobsmacked if these knives have the "unfinished" back bevel that is sometimes present on traditional single-bevel knives, which require a careful process of removal to "make a real edge" (honba-tsuke). If so, the back bevel would effectively overhang the bottom of the concave back edge (looking like the linked pic I hope I can upload).

That would mean that the main bevel would look like a compound bevel at the bottom tip, and there would appear to be a back bevel which needs grinding off to "flatten the back side" a bit grinding off A and B (ura-oshi), and the front bevel needs finishing along C.

Is this what you mean? Or are you describing a different configuration of edges - any chance of being more explicit about the edges and bevels? I am a bit confused, but if finishing requires a lot more than a thorough and slow ura-oshi were required then it does sound more than just a bit off-putting I must admit.

[akilia]

That said, a thin, stainless steel yanagi is perfect because it cuts through rolls better than the traditional thick spined yanagi, and still can cut sashimi decently when it must. It is also light, maneuverable and is very efficient at cutting thin, square pieces of avocados for caterpillar rolls. And even for a yanagi, it is works for katsuramuki as well (thin sheets of cucumber).

It is a one knife answer for this type of work. If it gets dropped or stolen, it only cost us $89 on ebay. We just have to grind them a little to make them a little better at sashimi.

With all of the negativity surrounding these, they do have their place with us. And now that they are discontinued, I am finding some deals on them, so we can stock up for awhile.

Now THAT's interesting.
I should mention that a friend who is a Sushi Chef was the person who recommended Shun Pro Yanagi to me, he uses a VG10 blade and speaks very highly of modern steel as well as revering Blue and White Paper. hence my deeper need to understand what Shun is really offering.

[akilia]

As I've thought about this a bit more, instead of describing it as an unusually thick suji, it might be more appropriate to describe the yanagi as having a profile which has a bit more in common with a fuguhiki since it's thinner than a traditional yanagi but quite a bit thicker than a suji

Miles, that's exactly what I have been thinking since I was first pointed in the direction of Shun Pro. I am happy to have a Fugu type blade, since VG10 is more forgiving than blue paper but still very much more rigid than the western style long thin slicers I have used and can't get on with.

[akilia]

Akilia,

Just a few remarks, which I hope fit what you're looking for -- reasoned commentary.

1. Cladding: with the exception of a few fantastically expensive handmade items, all Damascus knives sold today are clad. The Damascus appearance does not run throughout the metal of the knife. So when someone says that the Damascus cladding on Shuns is annoying because it doesn't do anything functional, this is quite true: it's there for appearance. But the same is true of all Damascus blades, with as I say very few exceptions. Some people love that look, some don't. To be fair, I rarely hear a lot of carping about Damascus cladding on non-Shun knives, though there is certainly some. Some people have had the experience that the cladding on Shuns scratches very easily when sharpening, but not everyone feels that way.

Shun Pro are not clad damascus, they are not Kasumi or awase style, they are just solid VG10 more analogous to Honyaki (and no, I'm NOT claiming that Shun Pro are Honyaki knives!). I suspect you are thinking of other Shun ranges.

2. Many people find that Shuns are relatively difficult to sharpen effectively, given the metal (VG-10, I believe) they're made of

Yes, I hear this and respect this view, even if I can't quite understand why a RC61 solid VG10 knife (analogous to a honyaki style, not awase style) is harder to sharpen than a RC63-66 traditional honyaki knife. I wonder if there is an element of confusing awase vs honyaki, and hardness of steel? RC61 is hard but hardly legendary. Just a thought.

3. KC's remark about angles has to be taken in context. He's saying that a serious, high-end professional yanagiba should not have an angle on the order of 15*.

Oh? My mistake then. What is the typical bevel angle of the Traditional Yanagi? I understood it was 14-15*, but experts here will know.

4. As I think Mike noted, the Shun Pro yanagiba is back-beveled, i.e. it's been ground at an angle from the hollow back. This is quite problematic, for a number of reasons. First, if as you say the bevel angle on the knife is 16*, then the angle down at the edge must be rather larger if it's back-beveled. Second, it makes sharpening the knife much trickier than ought to be the case -- and since a yanagiba isn't the easiest knife to sharpen anyway, that's a real strike against it. The reason for this difficulty is that the hard thing on a yanagiba is the bevel, which you've got to sharpen very smooth and even all the way along that long blade. If the blade is ground traditionally, the back face is easy: you just flip it over and grind evenly, flat on the stone. But if it's been back-beveled, you've got to hold an angle precisely, which is tricky and finicky with a blade this long and this thin. One solution, as mentioned by another poster, is to re-grind the whole back completely flat, but that's rather a lot of work to have to put into a knife.

I am not sure I understand the double bevel. Manufacturers and retailers say Shun Pro has a singlel bevel, so I have asked Miles to clarify exactly what the profile was he found, if he would (see my post with edge profile pic). I was wondering (just a thought) about honba-tsuke and in particular ura-oshi which was almost always required in a traditional J knife in years gone by, though many knives now are sold with honba-tsuke completed (sharp out of the box).

Hope that helps.

That's a lot of good points, Chris. I'm working through the premise(s) behind of some of them.

I can see that several really interesting better-performing knives have been proposed on this thread - I'm checking those out as well.

Knife sales on eBay in the UK are extremely difficult.

Import to the UK involves Broker fee and import duty, in addition to shipping costs, so costs are a lot higher than listed prices. Budget contraints may make this a wait for now venture.

[emibistro]

still fail to see why a yanagiba isn't better /scratch head

i run a kitchen with just 1 pastry chef doing 100+ covers a day in about 2 hour period... fairly busy, 6 burners and 1 plancha... maybe it's just me, i just don't personally find it so busy that i start making compromises on knives because i can't take care of them... maybe i'll change my mind when i start doing 200 covers a night by myself.

By no means am I saying to compromise, it is just an added benefit when you are constantly cutting sushi rolls for 5 hours and you just cant keep your knife dry and corrosion free.

When the Yanagi was designed, it wasn't designed for the purpose of cutting sushi rolls, or even working the line of a high volume kitchen to cut prime rib. It is designed to cut slices of raw fish very precisely and cleanly. There are very few sushi restaurants in the US that are not selling most of their volume in sushi rolls. (lets face it, we Haku-Jin love or rice rolled around fried, mayo laden, hot sauce scorched sushi rolls!) The Shun are thin knives and are light and just ideal for this task. They cut rolls very evenly and fast. And if you must, the Shun Pro Yanagi can proficiently cut up some sashimi. You don't want to be reaching for too many different things and cluttering your board with lots of different tools.

I have accepted the truth of the business we are in, so my nicer knives only come out when we are doing private dinners or the Japanese salary-men make a reservation.

There is no one correct answer, it is a very objective decision. Just choose the blade that brings the most joy. Chipping a heavy thick yanagi against my water bowl when im weeded brings me un-joy.

Im sorry, just noticed you were a domestic cook. I would then go with something more traditional. My bad.

Hope this helps, Good Luck!

[willspear]

if I were looking to compromise to a 1 knife for everything situation to do with sushi and roll cutting and general stuff to do with that I still wouldn't take the shun. I'd get a suji or a thin gyuto and run with it.

[miles]

Miles, your summary is a extremely interesting experience, thank you for the details. I was deeply shocked to hear that the Shun Pro Yanagiba knife seems to be double-bevelled, since the manufacturer's statements and retailers' comments all explicitly specify it is a single-edged single-bevel knife.
At first I wondered and then dismissed the idea that you meant compound-bevelled.

Then I wonder, how exactly is the double bevel configured? A back-bevel?
I would be gobsmacked if these knives have the "unfinished" back bevel that is sometimes present on traditional single-bevel knives, which require a careful process of removal to "make a real edge" (honba-tsuke). If so, the back bevel would effectively overhang the bottom of the concave back edge (looking like the linked pic I hope I can upload).

That would mean that the main bevel would look like a compound bevel at the bottom tip, and there would appear to be a back bevel which needs grinding off to "flatten the back side" a bit grinding off A and B (ura-oshi), and the front bevel needs finishing along C.

Is this what you mean? Or are you describing a different configuration of edges - any chance of being more explicit about the edges and bevels? I am a bit confused, but if finishing requires a lot more than a thorough and slow ura-oshi were required then it does sound more than just a bit off-putting I must admit.

The Shun is most definitely not a true traditional single bevel edge. It is a blade which shares the basic characteristics of a traditional single bevel blade, but to which a double bevel edge has been applied. The Shun does not have a flat back where the flat plane meets the outside/primary bevel to form the cutting edge. There is a back bevel applied to the inside/back at the cutting edge(B) and a secondary bevel applied to the outside (C), creating a double bevel edge as illustrated in your diagram.

The image below is representative of a proper traditional single bevel blade. As you can see, there is a "flat" back with a concave section/urasaki and a single primary bevel on the outside edge which meets this flat back creating the cutting edge. Many of us will put a very small microbevel on the outside edge (C in your diagram) out of personal preference in an effort to make the cutting edge a bit more robust, but the back is flat and serves as the inside of the cutting edge as is traditional in a single bevel/chisel edge.

In order to correct/transform the cutting edge into a traditional single bevel/chisel edge, I ground away at the outside primary bevel until the outside bevel met the flat plane on the back, eliminating both the original factory secondary bevels on the outside and the inside/back. I did not grind the back, as I wanted to preserve the urasaki. Once the secondary bevels had been fully ground away, I flattened the back to establish a truly flat back and worked my way up through the grits until the outside and the flats on the back were mirror polished. I eventually put a microbevel on the outside primary edge, as I did find that the edge was a bit more delicate than I wanted it to be.

I hope this answers your questions and clarifies any confusion regarding my previous posts.




I think it is important to keep a couple things in mind when considering the Shun Pro line. These are knives which "mimic" the styles of traditional Japanese knives. They are not meant to be true/authentic representations of those blade styles. These are knives which are aimed at the mass market of Western consumers. Shun knives are sold at Bed Bath and Things, Williams-Sonoma, and Sur La Table, along with countless other mainstream retailers. These aren't sold exclusively by niche retailers (Korin, EE, JWW, etc) to an even smaller niche of consumers within the Western consumer market (us: pro cooks and knife enthusiasts). Because they are aiming at the average consumer, they made very conscious and understandable (IMHO) compromises to make the Pro line and indeed some of the Classic line appropriate for the average consumer, most notably they applied the kind of double bevel edge that a western consumer would expect to have on a knife. Since the avenue of distribution is not based upon selling through specialized retailers with a very highly knowledgeable staff who would be able to educate the consumer about the product, they "punted". They want to be the Japanese equivalent of Henckels and Wusthof, which translates to mass volume in sales and a very wide distribution. I think it's perfectly understandable why they made the compromises. As a professional and an enthusiastic user of Japanese knives, do I like the compromises? Definitely not, but I understand why they made those choices from a business standpoint. They didn't want to be in the business of educating western consumers about Japanese knives, they wanted to be in the business of selling Japanese knives, even if some of them aren't accurate/true representations of the traditional styles. Thankfully, there are many companies who make those traditional knives for our niche of the market. Shun just isn't really one of them.

[DrNaka]

It is a one knife answer for this type of work. If it gets dropped or stolen, it only cost us $89 on ebay. We just have to grind them a little to make them a little better at sashimi.

With all of the negativity surrounding these, they do have their place with us. And now that they are discontinued, I am finding some deals on them, so we can stock up for awhile.

If a mass production maker discontinue a line you will see very good deals. It is not only for Kai/Shun it is true for Henkels etc.

These makers put up also quite amount of money on commercials. The consumer must pay for it too so the suggested retail price is higher than those who do not make so much commercials (till it is discontinued).

Traditional or not I think if the knife fits your needs it is a good knife.

[joecil]

Not at all. Just a problem getting hold of anything better in the UK, or else having a much larger budget.
Thanks for your time, much appreciated.

Before you go I have many knives by many makers including Shun. Now first off the Shun Classic line is worth every cent of their cost. The chef's knife is more a German design that Japanese but it still works fine and will cut anything you want to cut with it with in reason. Shun 3.5" standard shaped paring knife takes a back seat to no other knife on the market and in my opinion is the best paring knife out there. I also have an love the Shun Classic 9" bread and did a comparison against another brand in this group awhile back.

Now to the Shun Pro line. First the design looks standard Japanese but really isn't at all. I've owned only one a Yanagiba in about 270mm length. It cut fine when new but really didn't cut as well as a true Yanagiba due to the design. The concave back has a lot to do with how a Japanese knife is designed to cut. I eventually got a Sujihiki which isn't Japanese but more like a western carving knife. Now if I was recommending a good knife for any home cook I would highly recommend the Shun Classic line without hesitation at all. It is an excellent knife in someones hands that can appreciate it. The other Shun lines may be great by some standards here but just to over priced for me.

[miles]

I agree with Dr Naka. If the knife fits your needs, then it's a good knife for you, whether it fits the narrow definition of an authentic/traditional blade style or not.

The Shun knives, despite my personal feelings about some of the compromises, are "better" relative to the typical knife made by the mass market western makers. The steel is certainly better and the fit and finish are on par with the Wusthofs and Henckels of the world. They are unquestionably a step in terms of performance over the mass market Western makers, but the mass market Western makers are aiming at the broadest market possible. The crowd here isn't exactly representative of the broadest possible market, so the Shun knives aren't held in quite the same esteem. Does that mean they're bad? Not at all. They're just not quite what most here are looking for in their blades.

If I had to give up all my other knives and use only what is most commonly available in the mass market, would I go back to the German knives I started out with or would there be a lot of Shuns and Globals in my kit?

My kit wouldn't be German, that's for sure.