shiny or patina?

[jmbullman]

on this new sabatier i have, should i leave it alone and let it develop a patina, or should i keep it rubbed down and shiny? if shiny is the way to go how do i polish out the scratches that have occured just by placing the knife in the block and minor honeing with a messermeister cermaic steel. is there a magic cloth that will polish out scratches i think my bester 1200 will make the scratches worse and i don't want to remove the logo on the knife. thanks, james

[JKerr]

I've been thinking about picking up a Sab too, so I'd be quite keen to hear peoples input on this as well. Incidently, any suggestions for a suitable steel would be appreciated too. At the moment, I only have a fairly inexpensive (and I think fairly rough) F.Dick steel.

[thombrogan]

I think BDL has mentioned developing a working patina and polishing with a wine cork dipped in flour or baking soda. Haven't tried it as my favorite carbons are clad, but it's a possibility to consider for your Sabs.

[kml]

All my knives just developed a patina from working with them. I'm too lazy to polish them. I use a smooth packing steel 99% of the time. I don't have a Sab, It's all older German stuff.

cheers
ken

[boar_d_laze]

The last time I used a wine cork was a looooooooooooong time ago. In the home kitchen I use a Scotch-Brite type scouring cloth every time I wash the knife, and use baking soda at least as often as I sharpen, but more often if I see staining. In a pro kitchen, I'd scour with baking soda every night.

With a new knife you want to use the baking soda pretty frequently for the first month or so until the passivation situation stabilizes.

You will get a patina -- that is, the knife won't be mirror polish shiny new. Instead it will be a sort of dull, glowing grey like just about every other well maintained tool. Personally, I find that highly desirable.

If you want a darker patina that's easily done naturally or by gentle forcing. One of the best ways is to scour with with BKF, every day for a week or so, rinsing and drying well each time. The repetition is to get a very faint residue of the oxalic acid in BKF distributed evenly. There are other ways as well.

I don't think there is any way to maintain the logo on the knife and maintain the knife at the same time. The logo is just dark paint on a steel alloy. Unfortunately, the alloy either requires maintenance which will scour off the logo, or promoting a dark patina which will hide it. Either way, your SOL.

Did you ever say which Sab you have? I'm guessing T-I ****Elephant because the logo is pretty nice.

Hope this helps,
BDL

[olpappy]

Instead it will be a sort of dull, glowing grey like just about every other well maintained tool.

So when you say your Sabs are clean, without a dark patina, I'm guessing that means they have a light grey patina as described above?

What should a well used, well cared for usuba, deba or yanagi look like? Should it have the same light grey patina as a Sabatier? I kind of had the impression from the Korin DVD that the powdered cleanser and wine cork was to try keep the knife as clean and close to new looking as possible. I find Japanese white or blue steel can sometimes be very reactive, it darkens easily. Keeping it clean, in Japan does that mean removing darkening or stains?

I'll try to take some pictures of various knives with different kinds of patina/stains tonight. I have a small deba, the bevel gets polished when sharpening, so any rust or stains get removed. However on the back side urasaki it has typical dark stains where food contacted the blade.

A well established patina has a somewhat protective effect and lessens the reactivity of the steel. This is why I'm questioning the Japanese philosophy of essentially maintaining the knife as clean as possible. Example: if a rust spot develops on a knife with nice patina on it, removing the rust removes the patina in that area, exposing clean metal. That area of clean metal will be more prone to rust until it develops another patina.

Why would someone spend hours carefully applying a cosmetically pleasing natural stone polish on the blade road, when the first time it touches food it will discolor? Is such a knife destined to spend its time sitting in a saya coated with oil?

[jmbullman]

The last time I used a wine cork was a looooooooooooong time ago. In the home kitchen I use a Scotch-Brite type scouring cloth every time I wash the knife, and use baking soda at least as often as I sharpen, but more often if I see staining. In a pro kitchen, I'd scour with baking soda every night.

With a new knife you want to use the baking soda pretty frequently for the first month or so until the passivation situation stabilizes.

You will get a patina -- that is, the knife won't be mirror polish shiny new. Instead it will be a sort of dull, glowing grey like just about every other well maintained tool. Personally, I find that highly desirable.

If you want a darker patina that's easily done naturally or by gentle forcing. One of the best ways is to scour with with BKF, every day for a week or so, rinsing and drying well each time. The repetition is to get a very faint residue of the oxalic acid in BKF distributed evenly. There are other ways as well.

I don't think there is any way to maintain the logo on the knife and maintain the knife at the same time. The logo is just dark paint on a steel alloy. Unfortunately, the alloy either requires maintenance which will scour off the logo, or promoting a dark patina which will hide it. Either way, your SOL.

Did you ever say which Sab you have? I'm guessing T-I ****Elephant because the logo is pretty nice.

Hope this helps,
BDL

it is the mexceur & cie version. now what i am doing is cutting my food and washing the knife with hot water and mild soap. maybe i am confused but the knife is already turning colors like a rainbow, i was going to leave that alone and let it develoop its own personality. am i not supposed to do that. so confused, need help

[boar_d_laze]

it is the mexceur & cie version. now what i am doing is cutting my food and washing the knife with hot water and mild soap. maybe i am confused but the knife is already turning colors like a rainbow, i was going to leave that alone and let it develoop its own personality. am i not supposed to do that. so confused, need help

It's "passivating" and growing it's own patina/personality. You can just let it do its thing as long as you don't see red, orange, or reddish-brown as one of the colors. Personally, I think it's better to force a patina or keep a regular baking soda scrub going to keep things under control.

The baking soda thing was sort of a hallmark of professional cooks for that part of the twentieth century when carbons still ruled. My time started at the tail end, and I remain its product. That's got nothing to do with you, and I don't see why you should be disposed to use soda if you prefer a darker patina.

It's not a huge deal one way or the other. If you don't like the natural patina or you see (any) signs of rusting, you can polish the knife out and start over. Of course, that will mean losing the umbrella.

FWIW, I think olpappy and I are somewhat at cross-purposes when it comes to the difference between keeping the knife spot free and allowing a patina. I'm not helping any, by keeping a foot on each side of the fence. Other than that, we're in complete agreement. Does a baking soda regimen scour out and neutralize old passivation, or promote a particular sort? There's probably a right answer, but it's a very fine distinction. If someone actually knows what's really going on at the first micron or so of my knives, educate us. I know just enough chemistry and materials to be worse than clueless.

BDL

[Citizen_Snips]

with my misono sweedish suji i used it for about a week keeping it ultra-dry when possible and cutting high acidic foods as well as tomatoes as often as possible with it while paying very close attention to it and wiping very very frequently. i believe it did the same thing as BDL mentioned with the baking soda although it may not be the same chemical reaction. it did get that greyish color after a week and i forced a deeper patina with vinegar. i just soaked a kitchen towel with white vinegar and wrapped it around it very tightly. (the key was to keep it tight to form an even patina). i unwrapped and re-wrapped it every few minutes for about 30 minutes. when i pulled it out i dried it very well and ive never had a problem before.

i live in the midwest where it can get pretty humid in the kitchen and cut boxes of tomatoes, citrus, and all sorts of other produce and protein and not had any problem with it. when i sharpen it there is a small bit (maybe 1/16 inch) that loses the patina but never rusts. no orange or red color at all. this procedure might not help for every kind of carbon but worked well with my misono.

good luck
CS

[olpappy]

For a Sabatier I would say patina is the way to go, definitely. Let's put this in another perspective, if you had a white steel kiritsuke would you try to keep it polished, or patina? There are lots of people with traditional Japanese knives here, but I doubt that they are keeping their knives meticulously cleaned up the way Japanese seem to recommend, it's just not easy to completely remove staining every time you use a carbon knife, especially on the back side urasaki. I suspect there are a lot of patina'd single bevel knives hiding in American kitchens, would Japanese frown upon this? Dr Naka? any opinions?